95: Storytelling, Influence, and Impact: Communication Lessons for Leaders w/ Eva Daniel

If you can’t communicate your vision clearly, your leadership—and your impact—will stall. In this episode of No Limit Leadership, Sean sits down with Eva Daniel, executive communication coach and founder of The Speak Shop
, to explore why public speaking is a non-negotiable leadership skill. 

Eva has coached executives from billion-dollar companies, top authors, and nationally recognized speakers. She shares the frameworks, mindset shifts, and practical tactics that help leaders communicate with clarity and confidence—whether it’s a Monday morning meeting or a keynote stage.  

What You’ll Learn in This Episode: 

• (01:00) Why speaking is a core leadership skill
• (06:30) The link between content prep and delivery
• (09:28) Eva’s SPARK Framework for presentations
• (17:12) How to use storytelling to make your message stick
• (26:10) Why you should never end on Q&A
• (37:46) Common mistakes leaders make in presentations—and how to avoid them
• (44:53) Why the most powerful speeches come from the heart

🔗 Listen to the full episode here: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1234567/episodes/9876543

🌐 Connect with Eva Daniel: The Speak Shop

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
If you never develop the ability to communicate your vision effectively, your career will suffer, your growth will stall, and most importantly, the world will miss out on your greatness. The truth is, leadership isn't just about strategy or execution. It's about your ability to move people with your words. That's why today's guest, Eva Daniel, is here. She's an executive communication coach who has helped top leaders and speakers transform the way they inspire others. In this episode, Eva will show you how to repair, deliver, and tell stories that don't just inform, they ignite action.

If want to unlock the next level of your leadership, this conversation is for you.

Sean Patton (00:50)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton, and I am very excited for today's guest. I hired Eva Daniel as a speaking coach after seeing her on stage at a conference here in Nashville. And that was before I knew about her impressive background and career. She's the founder of The Speak Shop and an executive communication coach with over 15 years of experience, helping leaders craft and deliver powerful messages. She'd worked with executives from billion dollar companies like Chick-fil-A, top authors, and nationally recognized speakers.

She's a former senior producer for Focus on the Family's daily radio broadcast, a senior speechwriter for Dave Ramsey. mean, knows how to shape stories that capture attention and move audiences to action. Today, she equips leaders like me to level up their speaking skills so they can inspire teams, cast vision, and grow their influence. Very excited for today's conversation. Thanks for coming on today, Eva.

Eva Daniel (01:37)
Thanks for having me, Shawn. This is so fun. I've loved getting to work with you and you're such a great speaker. So I feel like you'll have lots of speaking tips for all of us too.

Sean Patton (01:45)
Well, I'll tell you what, you know, what was interesting was, ⁓ last week, actually I was helping out at a West Point entrepreneur summit conference here and, got kind of thrown in to help some of the people practicing and doing a bit of a workshop for their pitches for the entrepreneurs that are pitching. And so it was fun to kind of be able to put my, my hat on. I'm usually the one, you know, having you critique me and tell me all the things I'm doing wrong and my hands up, my hands are going crazy or whatever else. And I got to.

I got to be on the other side of it this last week. So that was fun to be able to impart some of that wisdom.

Eva Daniel (02:16)
Did you tell them, you know, my, my angel advice of tell about her stories, eat potato chips. I mean, I'm pretty predictable in all of my, all of my advice. So did you find yourself channeling Eva as in your advice?

Sean Patton (02:27)
I did one of the first ones was the open hands at the beginning. right. got to show your show your hands right. Uh, at the beginning.

Eva Daniel (02:33)
Yeah, you want to share your palms.

Anyone listening, you want to show your palms within the first 30 seconds of speaking. These were more trusting of people after we've seen their palms. So palms out.

Sean Patton (02:41)
We're already kicking out value women into this podcast. I just want to let everybody know that. let's get into some, we'll get to some tactics and all the tips is going to be a super valuable podcast. But overall I see ⁓ speaking as being valuable for what I do and I see it with my clients. But why do you see speaking as a core leadership skill for all elite business leaders or leaders of any organization, even if they don't consider themselves like quote unquote, a public speaker?

Eva Daniel (03:08)
I believe public speaking is one of the very best ways you can grow your professional career. And I believe this because I've seen it advance so many of my friends careers, my own career. And I think in the world we live in now, there's so many, like every day it feels like there's a new AI tool we're supposed to be using and all of these different, you know, automations on all of these things. I think there has never been a more important time and more poignant time for us to rise up as leaders through our communication. And I'm not just saying like,

on a stage giving a big speech at a conference. I'm even just saying the way you show up virtually on a presentation to a handful of people or for your team. So I really believe it truly remains the best way to connect with people, especially at a large scale and especially in the world that we live in now. And so I always say, if you want to grow your career, grow your public speaking skills and communication skills.

Sean Patton (04:01)
It's so true. I often say, I've said this on previous episodes that I would love to hear your take on this, but when I sort of evaluated like what separates people who really can, what skills separate people who really achieve their full potential, right? Of influence. there's so many different things we try to learn. And I thought, well, it comes down to me for sales, cause you have to persuade one person of your, whether it's an idea or a thing or whatever. And then as you move up, it's like, okay, now you need to have

public speaking skills because you need to persuade more than one person, ⁓ right, in order to grow your influence. And then it moves on to, you know, leadership. Like, all right, you've got a bunch of people convinced of your vision, how do you actually execute? So I think that it's like one of the key pillars. If you have important things to say, if you want to grow your career, if you have, if you're passionate about anything in life. And I agree that the today with the, with AI and automation, when it comes to writing and content, I mean, that stuff's great.

but it really stands out and you see what someone's made of when they can articulate that verbally,

Eva Daniel (05:01)
Yeah, command a room and just the energy around it. And I think so many leaders miss their opportunity of really being the leader that their team needs because of their version to public speaking. Some people love it. Some people hate it. Some people, most people kind of fall somewhere in between where it's kind of a necessary evil part of their job. But I truly believe public speaking is a skill just like any others. And if you're even listening, you're like, ⁓ maybe you don't love it. It might just be because you're a little rusty on it. You've never been trained.

or it's just been a while since you've intentionally thought of focusing on it. And I always tell people, you know, it doesn't have to be this huge, I need to now learn public speaking. It can be in simple things of just, you know, five minutes a day, more intentionally looking at the way you communicate and doing little actions that can really influence how your message is received and how others perceive you. And just frankly, you can become more confident in just your language. And again, that's even just in our conversations, that's not necessarily on those, you know.

big stages or leading a big team meeting either.

Sean Patton (06:02)
Yeah. And I think, you know, what I've, what I've noticed, especially with almost everything in life, but especially when it comes to communication and speaking is how even a little preparation can go such, can go such a long way versus just like walking into the room and winging it. So I, I, I, I'm wondering like what you think in terms of, you know, what are some, maybe some little things that leaders can do, you know, to prep for that Monday meeting before they get, they hop on a call when.

Eva Daniel (06:19)
Well, absolutely.

Sean Patton (06:30)
you know, what are the little things that they should be looking at in terms of structure that will make a big impact for them when it's time to deliver.

Eva Daniel (06:36)
Well, a lot of times when people struggle with their delivery, whether that is rambling or rabbit trails or I don't know what to do with my hands or I'm talking too fast or I'm losing my train of thought, a lot of those delivery related things are directly tied to their content. They're not clear on what their message is. They haven't really thought through how they're structuring their information. Maybe they haven't layered in stories or humor or interesting things or big takeaways. So

The first and the most important thing is just really being clear on what is it that you're trying to say. And a lot of times, you I have worked with leaders over the years that will stress and spend 15, 20, 30 hours to prepare a small five minute presentation. think I don't think you needed to give that much time to it. But then I've also seen it the other way where every presentation is just winging it because they're naturally charismatic or dynamic and they know they can kind of just speak off the cuff. And I think the nice spot is usually somewhere in between of giving

a little time and intentional effort. You'd be even amazed. Let's say it is just that Monday morning meeting, you're kind of just giving a staff update. What would it like to spend 30 minutes, an hour thinking through what you're trying to say? And there are some shortcuts of things you can do to prepare your content more quickly. But I always say if you really want to start leveling up your speaking, there's a couple of things you'll do. And one of those is to get in the habit of regularly practicing your content in front of real people for feedback.

prior to delivering it for a larger group. And by real people, I don't mean you in front of your bathroom mirror with your own reflection or even your spouse or somebody that's really close to the content and what you're saying. But what would it look like if three, five, seven days before, the bigger the presentation, the higher the stakes of getting a few people together to just run your content through, because that's gonna help you reduce some of those nerves. It's also gonna give you a sense of the timing of how long your content actually is gonna take.

And then again, you know, just as far as like leveling up, you know, an easy thing any of us can do is just, it sounds so cringy, but hit record on that presentation, get a little video, watch it back, not immediately, but watch your presentation back and just go, okay, what do I like about my speaking? Where could I level up? But honestly, just putting some of that intentional effort towards that both that content development and also that delivery, you'd be amazed at how much your speaking can transform.

I always say practice doesn't make perfect because we don't want to be perfect route. You're like, I am giving a speech now, or it feels over the top and dramatic. We want to be the most authentic version of ourself on the stage. And I believe that that often comes through practice, but practice makes confidence. Practice helps us find our own unique voice, our own unique message, and bring that best version of ourself to the stage.

Sean Patton (09:19)
I really like that and one of the more powerful frameworks you have is your spark framework I know for me and others can you go through that so the listeners can benefit?

Eva Daniel (09:28)
Yeah, absolutely. So this is how everyone listening, how you can write and prepare a presentation quicker. And when I say write, I work with clients that take up a handful of bullet points. Some, you know, take a fully written speech, whatever level of writing it is. So Spark is an acronym, and this is just how you're going to structure your speech. So in general, when you're thinking of those remarks, maybe you're just giving the Q3 marketing update to your team. You're going to the first step is always you need to just brainstorm your talk. You need to kind of think through

get you that brain dump of all those ideas you could do and you need to pick a point. Distill what you're gonna be talking about into one sentence. But saying that you've done that brainstorming work and have a point, you know what your presentation is about. Spark is an acronym. So story, S. I want you to start with a story. And when I say story, I want you to dive right into the center of the story.

Don't give all of the list of linear facts, the buildup of this happened and this happened. No, I want you to dive right into the center of the action. If you think of your favorite movie, Sean, do you have a favorite movie?

Sean Patton (10:28)
Oof, gosh, that would be a good... I know, it's been a while since I watched, honestly watched the movie.

Eva Daniel (10:30)
Put you on the spy here.

A movie you like. Let's

not pigeonhole you to favor it. That's too much pressure. Just a movie that you have enjoyed.

Sean Patton (10:39)
You know what's coming in line, is really weird is like the first Batman like Michael Keaton Batman. Yeah

Eva Daniel (10:42)
Okay, so there you go.

So whether it's the first Batman movie, Saving Private Ryan, Legally Blonde, we have a range of listeners, I know you do. Most of these movies, they start right in the center of the action. Very rarely do we get this very long buildup, backstory before something happens. Most movies, something interesting happens, and then we do the backstory of the details of, you know, the Batman's origin story and all of the things that happened. So the same thing goes with your presentation. I want you to start with something interesting.

and memorable to start with. Oftentimes just starting with a story right in the center of the action. And you might think, I'm giving a Q3 marketing update, but can you share the story of sitting at your desk two weeks ago when you received those numbers and how you felt when those came? ⁓ So there's a lot to be said about storytelling, but in general, I want you to consider starting right in the center, cold open, middle of the story. The P is problem. What problem does your speech solve, your presentation solve?

every speech, every presentation needs to solve a problem. Oftentimes when we're going to give a presentation, we rush right into the solutions or the things that we want, you know, our listeners or our team to do, but you need to make them feel the problem. Back to that Q3 marketing report, maybe the problem is the numbers weren't good. And like the problem is we need to figure out how to solve this as a team, but making sure you give the compelling problem so that your audience is receptive to the solutions that you have for them.

The A of Spark is simply actions, or action or actions. What are your solutions to the problem? Depending on how long your presentation is, if it's a five minute update, this might just be one. If you're giving a 60 minute keynote, you might have multiple actions. You might even have a whole framework you're taking people through, or a whole journey you're taking through. Saying it's just kind of a team update, you might just have one thing that we're gonna work on as a team to do, but the actions for that. R of Spark is resolve.

This is kind of a check for you as a speaker to go, did I resolve any story loops, any problems that I addressed? You need to make sure you close those story loops. But it also has a second meaning here. If you are gonna take questions from your audience and you're gonna resolve questions they have, I want you to take it towards the end, but not at the end, because you never wanna end your talk on a Q &A, because that way we've given that control of your ending, which can be the most powerful part of your presentation, over to the last question asker. So if you are gonna take Q &A,

towards the end, not at the end. And then K, knock out. How can you create a memorable, meaningful, impactful close? Sometimes that might be book ending that story you opened with. Sometimes it might be an inspirational picture of where the team is going or reminding people of the company vision. There's a lot of compelling ways you can do an ending, but the point is you want to own your ending. It's the final impression.

that your audience will have of you. So make sure that you make those words at the end count and you don't just go, well, so, well, yeah, so we need to, you we need to work on that. You don't want to end that way. You want to end on a strong, confident closing with your prepared closing lines. I always say, I can wing things. Hey, I mean, we're winging this conversation today. You don't know what I'm gonna say. I don't know what you're gonna say, Sean. So a lot of our presentations do have this element of impromptu dialogue, winging it.

But if you can really be confidently on your opening and your closing, you're gonna watch all of your presentations go up exponentially.

Sean Patton (14:03)
I mean, yeah, there's so much gold there. Let's go back to, let's start from the beginning. So story, man, I saw this with the pitches I mentioned at that summit. The person had a problem they were making, one in particular was making electronic ATVs for the military actually, for like Overwatch positions and things like that, because they have to carry all this equipment in. And he just started off, like you said, he started with a problem.

You know, got to carry stuff. You got to do that. And then he was halfway through and he started telling a story about when he was a Ford observer and how they had to carry all this equipment in. And I'm like, dude, start with that. know, like don't bury it. Like start by like, you know, pull us in, you know, if it's, you talked about at the beginning, the, ⁓ showing your hands, you know, to, ⁓ to, ⁓ explain it to it again, to gain the trust of people, right? Like immediately in the first 30 seconds, but with people's attention spans,

Eva Daniel (14:38)
⁓ Don't bury the lead.

Sean Patton (14:57)
especially if it's virtual, like a Q3 update, like you've got to get their attention immediately. And there's no better way to do that than, than with a story, right? Our, our, our minds think in terms of stories.

Eva Daniel (15:06)
Exactly.

stories make our content stick. There is a lot of research ⁓ that shows this. They say that we're six to seven times more likely to remember something if it's wrapped in a story. But I do want to just kind of address, a lot of leaders are like, yeah, but there's not necessarily a lot of space for storytelling. But I always say, even if you're in an industry that has more data rich, you're showing a lot of graphs, you're showing a lot of numbers, you're showing a lot of

know, bar graphs, a pie chats, and Excel spreadsheets like that's kind of considered to be a big part of your job where you're showing more data. Stories are in numbers too. Numbers tell stories too. So even just thinking through in the same way that you'd build, say that this amazing hysterical story of this thing that happened or whatever, you might also want to consider your numbers tell stories too. So is there a way that you can arrange them still building up to, well, what are you building up towards? What is the number that we're really paying attention to?

especially if you're sharing a lot of numbers, create a story with your numbers too, create analogies, give examples within that as well. So it's not just for an inspirational keynote, it's also figuring out a way to make your content sticky through storytelling, through narrative and bringing in those elements.

Sean Patton (16:22)
Yeah, really gives context like you mentioned too. If you are telling the, I guess we're on this Q3 storyline right now, so we'll stick with that. But yeah, like you're giving the Q3 update or planning for Q3, you're looking at Q2, but like you could sit here and be like, these were sales, this was revenue, these were calls, this was inbound. It's just like, oh my gosh, you know? But if you start with looking at all that, you mentioned the prep beforehand, like what is the overarching story that those numbers are telling you so that you...

can now have context, all those things make sense inside of that. I think that's so powerful. And I think what I'm hearing from you is to not get overwhelmed with stories. I know I did when I first started speaking is they started pushing on like, don't have any stories. I don't know to tell this story, but it doesn't need, need to write, war and peace or some big novel. It's just a small narrative, right?

Eva Daniel (17:12)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (17:16)
How does this make sense? What's your point?

Eva Daniel (17:17)
And I think we can be helpful because it feels like storytelling in general has been one of those more trendy topics that we talk about more the last several years in leadership, but really simple tip, open a notes app on your phone, do story file. as things, you know, memories come to you as experiences happen, just try to draw a little one-liner so that when you are thinking of giving a presentation, you can reference back to that. Same goes if you're reading, you know, prolific reader and you're reading all these leadership books and there's some inspirational story about World War II.

tag that, clip that if you're listening to audio or tag that bottom corner of the page so you could reference back to it. Not every single story you share has to be yours either, but just being a little bit more intentional of going, how can be a little bit more engaging? And on stories, remembering that stories are not just a list of linear facts, it's pulling in the feelings or the emotions. How did you feel when that experience happened? Can really start leveling up those stories that you're sharing with your team.

And I always just like to remind leaders too, you need to think of the fact that when you are giving a presentation, are you providing something that just emailing the slide deck wouldn't have done? If that information could just be just as easily communicated through an email, through emailing a slide deck, then you haven't really put enough effort into it. I want you to give a presentation that answers the question or brings to life one...

piece or a few pieces of that thing that maybe you will be emailing later because everybody does need to see all the numbers. But how can you bring what could have been an otherwise dry email or slide deck to life because that's really what you're supposed to be doing ⁓ in the leadership. And I always just say, leadership truly is one of the best ways you can. ⁓ Leadership and using your leadership position to speak and communicate with your team is one of the best ways you can.

Communicate the vision forward for your company, where your team is going, their role within the company. No one else can replace that except you as the leader of the ones really casting that vision. And so don't miss your opportunities. And sometimes it can be like, oh, I'm just giving a three minute marketing update. Well, you are, but how can you make that memorable, bring it to life, and just put a little bit more intentionality into it?

Sean Patton (19:29)
I love that. So would you say that there's a difference in the approach ⁓ and framework for communicating when you are maybe the purpose of it is to cast a big vision and to get people on board with a new idea versus sort of tactical updates or is it pretty much the same? You're just the emphasis just is different.

Eva Daniel (19:51)
I think the emphasis can be different. I also would say I always just like to challenge leaders to say, is there someone else on my team that should give the tactical updates, somebody else I can empower that I can train up in their public speaking so that they can grow as like a team member on my team? And how as a leader can I be the forward facing one that is casting that vision? But no, it both goes.

It goes both ways. mean, sometimes we're just giving updates and sometimes we are casting that bigger vision. In terms of the preparation, obviously if you're giving a three minute update in the middle of eight other people's big updates, you might not want to do this big, know, crescendo in or rational close, you know, like that might be a little over the top on a Monday morning at 830 when you have four other people going after you. So obviously always knowing the audience of who you're speaking to, where you fall on that lineup.

⁓ And what you know I went radio when I was in radio world we called it the AC the appropriate comment What are you coming out of and what are you going into? To make sure that it's the right tone the right messaging the right kind of content So I would also say sometimes just looking at the lineup of where are you if you are? Kicking off a full-day conference and off strategic off-site that your team is doing

it's probably gonna be a little bit different in tone than if you're at 2 p.m. giving a quick, you know, 10 minute update. So a lot of times just really that awareness of what's coming before you, what's coming after you can really help shape and determine what you share.

Sean Patton (21:17)
And what I'm getting across too, as we look at your whole framework here and we talk about sort of this new or evolving way of working with AI being sometimes remote or hybrid or virtual is how important, you know, separating out like the point of speaking and the point of communicating. What I'm getting from you is that it is that storytelling, you know, it is that difference maker. It's not just, if you are just,

I take this from my wife who works in a virtual company and the amount of time she goes to a meeting and it's someone just clicking through slides that, you could this just be an email? Could you just send this out? And with some of the executives that I work with, I talk about preparation and how preparation is really showing commitment to the team. So showing up to the meeting, like you're talking about, having done some preparation, presenting it.

and not just, and have you looked over the data beforehand and have other people looked over the data so you can have meaningful conversation and communicate meaningful messages and not taking up, you know, all the VPs and the company coming together to look at a slide. Like if you're doing that, you're probably doing something wrong.

Eva Daniel (22:23)
Well, and you mentioned a second ago, just that virtual presentation, what can happen there for sharing that slide deck is on a lot of platforms, we can become a little bubble on the side because our deck is being shared. Obviously, there's some, you know, tech things where we can be more of the screen. But in general, a lot of people, you know, on those virtual presentations, you know, there's a lot of things like little quick things that people can do to become better at those virtual presentations as well, but of really being intentional with going. And I think, you know, one of the biggest mistakes I make

you were making when we first started working together, most of us make, is we have so much content that we want to share because we want people to have everything, every detail, everything that mattered. And a lot of times it's just really cutting our content down. We can all become too close to our own content. Again, that's why it can be helpful to have an outside voice listen to us before we're presenting because a lot of times it's just we're so passionate. We're trying to cover way too much than what would fit in five minutes or 15 minutes or an hour.

and it's really asking some of those core audience questions that some of us don't do of, well, okay, and by audience, I mean, it can be your team, but what do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? What do I want them to do? And getting really, really clear on, again, back to that main point, that bottom line of your talk, that one sentence definition of what your presentation is about, is it being clearly driving towards...

one thing rather than trying to cover 20 things because you want everybody to know everything. A lot of those 20 things might be better communicated through an email or slide deck because maybe it's a little bit more to absorb. But what can only you uniquely bring in that presentation limiting it to overall one theme, one topic? They can have a few points within it, but to make sure that you're just really, really clear on what it is you're trying to communicate.

Sean Patton (24:07)
⁓ that's such a good point. And it's so hard for me. And what really helped me to your point was, working with coaches like you and, know, I had people tell me, or if I think back to when I went as in an audience and I saw, a great keynote, know, like what are the, like, wow, blown away, amazing. then within two days, if someone's like, what was that about? I'm lucky if I can say one thing.

You know, like, you you, you, you, think that that person has spent an hour communicating and they, if they, if they would have communicated to your point, 10 amazing ideas, just our lives are so busy. We have so many things going on that like we really have the audience has the ability to retain and focus on just one thing. So it's really about keep to your point, keeping the audience in mind and putting yourself in those shoes. ⁓ is, is worked for me because yeah, I get, I'm like,

You're right, get so excited. like, I want to give, in my mind, I'm like, I want to give you the whole solution. I want to give you a, I want to be complete, but in doing so, I almost make it where you don't get anything.

Eva Daniel (25:07)
Yeah, it can be, I mean, it can happen to presentations. We all have sat through a lot of those presentations. And one thing you said in there that I always like to keep in mind even for myself, don't overestimate your own memorable, don't overestimate how memorable you'll be. We want everybody to remember every single thing that we say, but if you can just really get your clear bottom line apart. And then again,

you remember the stories. mean, even earlier when you mentioned that, you know, that ATR or ATV or whatever it was earlier, you probably remembered more of his story rather than all of the details or the specs of whatever it was that he was presenting.

Sean Patton (25:46)
That's so true. That's so true. So, and let's talk about your, when you resolve and you have this knockout at the end, I think that's so important. And you mentioned the Q and A and like never, this is another thing I see all the time with people who haven't maybe had formal training is ending on Q and A or ending week or the forbidden, well, that's all I got. That's what I hear all the time.

Eva Daniel (26:10)
Well, and presentations are ruined every single day all across the world by ending on a Q &A. And I always love to clarify, I love Q &A. I think Q &A can be a really great way to engage your audience, let them, you know, ask what they need to ask, help you to clarify pieces. You just don't want to end on a Q &A. I often share a story, but several years ago when I was still working at Dave Ramsey's company, we did this very large youth event.

And so hundreds of high school students was all about teaching personal finance to high school students. This was one of those events that was being filmed and then was gonna be packaged to go out to high school students. And so Dave takes Q &A and these teenagers are popping up with all the questions you'd envision them to ask. How do I save for my first car? How do I go to college without student loans? Just what you'd envision teenage life, ⁓ at least their professional teenage life questions to be asking.

And at the very end of this long line of teenagers is an older gentleman. How he got in the room, it's like, why did you buy a ticket to this event? And his question is a very, very long monologue, nuanced questions about Roth IRA conversions into dafts. I mean, it is like super nuanced financial question that number one,

only impacted him. You some people just don't have this self-awareness. It's like there's no dumb questions. Actually, there are. People ask them all of the time. You know, one of those questions that only applies to him in his unique situation. And so here was this great presentation that just kind of ended flatly. And that was the first time I really noticed like, wow, what a bummer ending. But then I started, of course, as I started going like, why do speakers so often end on Q &A? A lot of times it's just because that's what you're asked to do. Hey, can you give a 45 minute presentation Q &A?

⁓ Unless it's a panel where literally the whole thing is Q &A, I always just tell my speakers, you want to own that ending. So even if you're asked to give a Q &A and you want to take the Q &A, it's always worth asking, is Q &A me better than the content I can prepare? And if honestly you think that your prepared content is stronger or would be more meaningful, you can always just push back and say, hey, actually, I believe my prepared content is stronger than Q &A, but I'd be happy to stay around afterwards to take questions.

Sean Patton (28:14)
Hmm.

Eva Daniel (28:25)
But saying you are going to take questions, because like I said, it can be a great way to engage your audience, you just need to make sure you transition into it and out of it. Hey, I'm going to pause now to take your questions. And in just a moment, I'm going come back to tell you inspirational stories about Martin Luther King Jr., or whatever your closing words. In just a second, I'm going come back to tell you one final number from that Q3 report.

And you can kind of tease out where your ending is going to be. You take that Q &A, you save yourself two to five minutes at the end to end strongly. And then, wow, in a room this size, I'm sure there's so many more questions. I'd love to hear them afterwards. But there's one final number I didn't share. And then you can go in to really own that ending.

Sean Patton (29:02)
Yeah, think that's so powerful and worst case, maybe you can tell me I'm wrong on this, ⁓ ending strong, take the applause, everybody applaud, take your standing ovation, get done, and then ideally, ⁓ what I've seen is if it's a stage, leave the stage and have someone almost bring you back up for Q &A. That is a strategy, make it whole separate thing. Speech is done.

Eva Daniel (29:26)
Yes.

Sean Patton (29:30)
We all had that moment. Now I'm coming back up and this is a different thing.

Eva Daniel (29:33)
Well, and Sean, do you know the best way to get a standing ovation at the end of a talk? Tell everybody to stand up and give a clap for themselves, but really, it's a clap for you. Just kidding. But that is the speech, if you could try. is a to get a standing ovation every time. Stand up and give yourself a clap. Actually, that was for me.

Sean Patton (29:37)
How's that?

I might, I might try that for a, if I, yeah, when I've got a,

when I've got a videographer up there, you know, and I'm trying to get good film, I'll, I'll be like, let's get up and everybody stand up and give a standing up for yourself. ⁓ Yeah. I, I'm interested on, ⁓ you know, one strategy and I saw this when I was working with the pitch presenters too, that

I keep telling people and I'm interested if you have any other tactics or strategies of strong ways. Let's talk about the knockout, like strong ways to end because my go-to is just say your final line, say thank you and bow. Just full stop. I just ended that way. Like, so people know that you're done and you, can just end with this pause. Thank you. Bow and take it in. That's kind of my standard. don't know how you feel about that. Or if you have any other strategies for how to have a good knockout ending.

Eva Daniel (30:35)
Well,

I think there's a handful of things you can do for a strong ending. What you just shared, think depending on kind of what was towards the end of your content, you know, can affect that. But having a really powerful final statement is always a you know, great idea. In general, I think a really strong closing can be book ending. If you did start your speech with a story, book ending that story. And what I mean by book end is either you're closing a story loop you started, or maybe it's giving another angle of that story.

Sometimes a really powerful close can be a story from someone else. Is there an inspirational story of somebody who applied all of these things that you've suggested that they do that they could they could end with? I always tell leaders, especially if you're doing kind of like a kickoff beginning of the year, know January rah rah rah. This is where our team is gonna be I think it can be very inspirational to kind of that future vision I even think it can be a fun exercise even if this isn't the closing of your speech I think it could be a really great exercise for you as a professional to just

do I imagine a world in which... What world do you imagine if everybody just applied what you suggested? What would the world look like in five years, 50 years, 100 years from now when we're all dead and gone? If people benefited from our company, our product we sold, the thing that we did, the change we're making, what world do you imagine? And give us that vision for that world. Again, that works a little bit better if you're kind of like the Andy in keynote.

or if there's a break after yours instead of now we go into, know, like again, the tone of where your presentation is going next, but give us that picture for the future. think especially, you know, so much research has come out about Gen Z and just their desire and their need to work for a more altruistic, bigger vision. So your role as the leader is to give that vision to them.

And you know what the vision, your vision for your company might just be to like make a more money and make stakeholders happy, but that's not really very compelling necessarily for the team. So how can you translate that? Yes, the bottom line might be that obviously have a well functioning company that continues to do well from, ⁓ you know, from a revenue perspective, but what kind of change are you making? How are you making people's lives better by the work that you do and sharing some of that vision is very compelling for team members.

And then again, know, and this depending on how high your leadership level is within an organization, it's also can be your role to help team members see their role within that vision. Depending on the size of your company, if you're the CEO of a large company, you might just be setting that big vision. And then obviously individual team leaders are helping everybody see how their daily work invest towards that bigger things. But people want to be brought along in a compelling vision, a compelling narrative of the change that you're making in the world. And some people listening might be like,

Well, that's great, but we like sell paint for houses or we do something that's very, it might be a little bit harder for some people listening. They're like, yeah, but what we do is not really that inspirational. But there is inspiration is that because of your paint, do you give people homes that they get to raise families and build their lives in? so even just finding that higher purpose, that higher meaning within what your company does.

And then reminding your team that the reason that we're coming here every day is because of this great work that we're getting to do in the world. And so it never hurts as that leader to just remind, it's like, you know, you're the chief reminding officer when it comes to what your vision is, what the vision of your company is and where you're going. We're here, but we're going there. We're here, but we're going there. We've come from this long past and we're here, but we're going there. Always reminding your team of that vision is one of the very best things you can do as a leader.

Sean Patton (34:19)
That's so good. you know, what I've noticed too is sometimes it's absolutely about what's the company doing externally, but some of that could be what you're building in, know, pride in how you're impacting people's lives inside the company, right?

Eva Daniel (34:32)
Yes, exactly.

Exactly. and, know, and I think just back, back again to telling the stories, ⁓ I've worked at companies in the past that were so good at telling stories, both internal of people, ⁓ know, team members, and then also external of the clients who are reaching. So sharing more, sharing more of the internal stories of the internal, you know, successes and wins of the team. your company, for example, allows your team.

volunteer hours or maybe your company is coming alongside ⁓ cool benefits or whatever, but telling more of those stories as well.

Sean Patton (35:10)
Yeah, that's, I actually was talking with a, ⁓ entrepreneur and owner of a marketing agency. He was telling about their friends that have this long standing marketing company, small team, but if like always taken really good care of the people on their team and have, and just look at leadership in a different way and responsibility inside of what whole person leadership looks like instead of just profitability. And so they were saying, you know, if, ⁓ if people worked there long enough, they were, the company was doing things like

Uh, paying for private school for their kids. Like if you worked there long enough, they would pay for college. Okay. I'll get to that email later, but yeah, it sounds pretty awesome. said, they would even pay for college and that sort of thing. Right. So like there could be this inspirational thing of like, look at what we're creating. Like, you know, I'm almost reminded of it was this great speech that Nick Saban gave one time. And just to, again, the one point, the line I got away from was like winners want to be around winners. So if you're telling the story of like.

Eva Daniel (35:41)
Wow, what company is that? I have four kids. Wait, what company? Working for myself has been great, but where is that again? It's interesting that you know.

Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (36:05)
look at the amazing stuff we're doing for each other too. you can, you have like, so I guess, you know, you're, you're a content first coach and communicator. And so we have the content external to your point, where have we been? Where are we now? Where are we going externally? Then there's also like, what are the stories internally of like, what are we building? And people want to be a part of momentum. They want to be a part of a team that's winning and doing cool things internally.

Eva Daniel (36:14)
Yes.

And, also sharing,

sharing history, company stories more. New people are starting on your team all of the time and they don't necessarily, depending on your onboarding process and what that looks like, it varies so much from company to company telling more of those early days, scrappy stories, or even, know, if you have risen through the ranks of leadership at your company, sharing those stories more, because maybe you started, you know, when you were 26 and it was kind of like your second job out of college and

You you rose in the ranks to be the leader that you are today, but sharing those stories more too, ⁓ company history and your own stories can be inspiring, especially for those younger team members who maybe they are in their first or second job out of college and they're kind of still finding their footing in this professional world, encouraging them and sharing them those stories as well.

Sean Patton (37:16)
love that. You've you've shared so much on the right way to do things right like the right ways to prep the right way to deliver.

Eva Daniel (37:23)
Yes,

if only our world was that ideal and we didn't find out this morning we were presenting in an hour. Real world.

Sean Patton (37:28)
Yeah, exactly. If we could do all these things. But

as people get into this, whether seasoned presenters are there new, maybe what are the things that the sort of biggest repeat offender mistakes or little things that you see presenters do that we can avoid?

Eva Daniel (37:46)
Absolutely. What are some of the most common mistakes? And there's a lot of them. Let me start my TED talk. No, a few of the biggest, you know, we're going to talk, let's talk about a couple just content ones first, and then just a couple delivery ones. So content, again, just not being really clear on where you're going, you know, not having that clear point, having too many points. So, you know, your speech needs one point. On, you know, delivery related, a few things that can happen is one,

oftentimes fueled by nerves. A lot of people struggle with nerves. mean, research would show about 72%. I think sometimes that percentage is actually a lot lower for leaders, but a lot of leaders struggle with nerves. And one way this can kind of show up is that first minute of speaking. And so a big mistake I see speakers make is they don't fully get themselves on the stage before they start speaking. So I encourage everybody to ground yourself in the first minute. What I mean by that,

is you're walking to the front of the room or if it is a stage, walking up on that stage and you're consciously dropping your feet shoulder width apart, dropping your shoulders, opening up your arms, showing those palms, making eye contact and smiling. And for that first minute of talking, just stay in one spot. Now, if you're high energy and you want to move all over the stage, that's great. But just grounding yourself in that first minute can really help bring yourself to that moment.

and be present there. A lot of people I know struggle, or I've heard, you know, struggle so much with nerves, they even kind of like disassociate a little bit where they feel like they're floating above themselves. And that grounding can really help with that of just being in that moment. Another huge one on delivery is eye contact. Oftentimes we think we're making good eye contact because we're making it, but we're just flitting around all the time. Some studies were done and it's called the leadership gaze. And they did all of these studies about CEOs and eye contact.

And they basically found out that like you or I, your normal people in conversation, we make eye contact 30 to 40 % of the time. But CEOs consistently make it 70 % of the time. Overall, when you're speaking, as long as there's more than one other person, because you don't be like drilling into them awkwardly, you should be thinking, I'm actually trying to make eye contact like the whole time I'm speaking. But by eye contact, I don't mean we're flitting all around. I want you to hold one full thought, one full sentence with one person.

before you move on to the next person that you're making eye contact with, before you move on to the next person you're making eye contact with. Eye contact commands attention. And it sounds so basic, and yet it's one of those things that a lot of us are not doing. Another thing I just always, know, big mistake I can see is people are not aware, I call them filler gestures. So these are in the same way that filler words can be really distracting. ⁓ like, know, does that make sense? Right?

Sean Patton (40:19)
Thank you.

Eva Daniel (40:25)
As much as those can be distracting in the talk, filler gestures can be really distracting too. What do you mean by filler gesture? Hands in the pockets, tugging at my blazer, twisting my hair, brushing the hair off of my forehead the whole time I'm speaking, rocking back and forth, weirdly looping my arm behind the other arm. So those filler gestures, those filler words can really be distracting and derail from your content. So I always just say, you know, the best way to reduce

filler words, filler gestures, self-awareness, knowing what yours are and when you use them. The best way to do that is either ask somebody or to watch a video back from yourself. But some of those things can just be very distracting and take away from your core message, your presentation. A lot of times the best way to kind of fix those filler words, pausing more, you're not in a race. And if you feel like you're in a race, it might be because you have too much content you're trying to fit in.

might be because of nerves, but it might be because you're really rushing because you have way too much to include. So again, pausing, leaning, you are not in a race. I am here and I'm excited to present. And then again, on those filler gestures, sometimes it's just awareness. They call it kind of the plane level. So when you think about your gestures, a lot of us are like, what do I do with my hands? You know, where we're speaking. A good rule of thumb is open and kind of like between, between chest and waist, you're just kind of open with your hands. A good default is just kind of living in that space.

And again, gesture should kind of always fill the size of the room you're speaking in. But one of the big things is once you're presenting, enjoy it. You know, a mistake people make is they're so eager to sit back down and have it move on because maybe they don't want to present or they haven't practiced or whatever. But like, enjoy the moment you're in. Someone believed in you enough to ask you to speak or present. It might not feel like an honor in the moment or you might be the owner of the company and it's just a part of your job, but

People are sitting there, a captive audience, to listen to what you have to say. That's an incredible opportunity. So don't miss it. Enjoy it. Lean into the moment. Make the most of it. And present your ideas.

Sean Patton (42:29)
Those are so good and I was thinking through as you were talking, one thing I've noticed with eye contact is that even if they're not, even if a speaker or someone communicating is not making eye contact with you, if they're making good eye contact with someone else, you almost feel like they're making eye contact with you.

Eva Daniel (42:46)
Yes, and if you're speaking,

let's say you're speaking to like thousand people, kind of almost even thinking like, kind of like, I'm still making eye contact with as many kind of like big sections of the room as I can. And that person will feel like you gave the talk just to them because you made that good eye contact.

Sean Patton (43:01)
And then on the gestures, that's such a good point. And what I've noticed, and so I'm interested if you've seen this too, is I've noticed in general, I'm generalizing, women, it tends to be the hair, like something with their hair, like behind their ear, yeah, filler gesture. It's okay, it's all right, we're in form here. It looks amazing, it looks amazing. And then with men, least with me, especially when I first started speaking, it's always pockets. It's always hands and pockets.

Eva Daniel (43:12)
the fuller gestures, yeah. I've done it a few times on our podcast today. And it's actually look on camera, let's.

or stroking the imaginary

beard. That's what I joke about is some men don't even have a beard and they're stroking their chin.

Sean Patton (43:33)
That makes us feel very wise. do feel more wise when I do

that. Yeah, that's so good. And then you talk about the power of the pause. And I think for new speakers, like this silence is so uncomfortable for most people that they're rushing to fill it.

Eva Daniel (43:48)
So, and it feels so long

as a speaker when you use it.

Sean Patton (43:51)
But for the audience, like I would just, I would just say that, you know, in terms of when I, when I have changed, what I've changed the most in last couple of years as a professional speaker. And what I try to impart on is like, your pause is probably never long enough and your gestures are not big enough.

Eva Daniel (44:09)
Yeah, no, is

a lot. There is a lot of truth in that. And I think a lot of it, mean, again, in the gestures, your gestures should fill the size of the room. So if you're talking, you know, close, you're going to be close, but the bigger the room is, bigger your gestures become. And it won't feel out of out of it might feel a little over the top for you as a speaker, but it won't for those people in the back of the room, it'll be engaging and bring kind of a dynamic energy to your presentation.

Sean Patton (44:35)
all of that. Well, since we're going to use the Spark framework, we've had so much, we have great stories, we've conquered, I feel like the problem, the action, resolved it. So on the knockout, what do you want to leave the listeners with? What should they step away from, from this conversation from Eva Daniel about effectively communicating their message better?

Eva Daniel (44:53)
Well, you know, as a speech coach, I'm supposed to tell you that, if you just work on the content and you work on your delivery and you figure out what to do with your hands and all of those things that it's enough to be a great communicator. And the truth is, and I strongly believe that most of the best, most iconic speeches ever given in history were not the speeches that were planned or prepared. They were the ones given from the heart.

If you look at speeches like Martin Luther King Jr.'s I Have a Dream speech or Winston Churchill's Never Give In or Obama's spontaneously breaking into Amazing Grace after the Charleston shooting, these were the moments that were the not planned moments, not the ones they practiced or perfected or performed. They were the ones that were fully in the moment. And so I just always like to remind people, end of the day when it comes to your speaking, I want you to plan, I want you to prepare.

But ultimately, the very best speeches that you will give will be the ones that come from the heart in the moment, being fully present in the moment that you're in. And so just a reminder, do the work, get your reps in, level up your public speaking skills because it has value, it will advance your career. But just know that at the end of the day, that what people need the most from you as a leader, as a speaker who is a human, who's speaking from their heart and who they feel seen by.

So again, prepare your marks, but always be present in the moment you're in and be willing to speak from that place. And you can break a lot of the other rules about public speaking, but if you keep true to that and the message that you feel like you are supposed to give on that day to that audience on that topic, then you will become a great speaker.

Sean Patton (46:33)
Fantastic, Eva, that's amazing. People wanna hear more from you, get ⁓ in contact with you about your coaching, your services. You've got this amazing Speak Shop and Speak School and you've got group programs and all these things now. So what's the best way? it your website, is it on LinkedIn? Where are you at mostly?

Eva Daniel (46:51)
Well, I am very active on LinkedIn. So LinkedIn is a great place to find me, Eva Rose Daniel. I also have a website, thespeakshop.com, have a weekly or bi-monthly, twice a month. That's always so confusing. Every two weeks, every two weeks, I sit down at a newsletter with just speaking tips that you can hopefully apply basically immediately to your life and your speaking, but the best place is speakshop.com.

Sean Patton (47:13)
Awesome. Thanks, Eva. I appreciate the time today.

Eva Daniel (47:15)
Thanks so much.