97: The Time For Your Voice To be Heard Is Now W/ Neelu Karr

If you’ve ever been told to “keep your head down and let your work speak for itself,” this episode is for you. In today’s fast-paced, AI-driven world, staying quiet can cost you influence, opportunity, and fulfillment.

In this inspiring conversation, Sean Patton talks with Neelu Kaur — executive coach, keynote speaker, and author of Be Your Own Cheerleader — about the power of self-advocacy, mindful leadership, and the importance of finding your authentic voice.

Neelu shares her journey from “staying under the radar” to helping leaders across Fortune 500 companies create inclusive, high-performing cultures. You’ll learn how to advocate for yourself with confidence, help your team share their best ideas, and lead with the one thing AI can’t replace — your human uniqueness.

💡 Episode Highlights

• Why “keeping your head down” is a recipe for being overlooked
• Cultural conditioning and how it shapes our ability to self-advocate
• Practical strategies for leaders to create psychologically safe spaces
• The “I vs. We” dial — how to balance individual and collective leadership
• The Lighthouse Effect and why self-advocacy is a generous act
• How to build mindful awareness and reclaim your creative energy in the AI era

Time Stamps:

00:00 – 00:57 Intro — Why “keeping your head down” can hold you back in today’s world
00:58 – 01:42 Meet Neelu Kaur — Executive coach, speaker, and author of Be Your Own Cheerleader
01:43 – 03:22 Defining self-advocacy for everyone, not just executives
03:23 – 05:25 Why self-advocacy feels uncomfortable — cultural and personal conditioning
05:26 – 07:33 How upbringing shapes our voice — the “silent generation” story
07:34 – 09:34 Creating psychological safety and “buckets of time” for team input
09:35 – 12:15 Knowing your team — tailoring leadership to each individual’s strengths
12:16 – 14:12 Energy management and the 70/30 rule for fulfilling work
14:13 – 16:25 The leader’s role in slowing down to speed up
16:26 – 18:28 Balancing intention with the fast pace of modern organizations
18:29 – 20:05 Using office hours and device-free time to recharge and refocus
20:06 – 22:16 How individuals can start practicing self-advocacy in low-stakes settings
22:17 – 24:38 Awareness as transformation — mindfulness and emotional ownership
24:39 – 26:02 The “I vs. We Dial” — shifting language based on context
26:03 – 27:27 Balancing servant leadership with self-leadership
27:28 – 28:45 Advocating for your own growth and development
28:46 – 31:06 How AI is changing leadership — what machines can’t replace
31:07 – 33:37 Staying human and creative in an AI-powered world
33:38 – 35:36 The Lighthouse Effect — how self-advocacy inspires others

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
If you've ever been told to keep your head down and let your work speak for itself, this episode is for you. Because in today's fast-moving, AI-driven world, staying quiet can cost you influence, opportunity, and fulfillment. And if you lead a team, it's just as critical. Because your best ideas and your people's best ideas can only flourish in a culture where it's safe to speak up. My guest, Neelu Kaur, is an executive coach, speaker, and author who helps professionals find their voice and their leaders create environments where innovation thrives.

In this episode, you'll gain the ability to advocate for yourself with confidence, help your team share their best ideas, and stand out by leading with the one thing AI can't replace, your authentic human uniqueness.

Sean Patton (00:58)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton, and I'm very excited to have our guest today, Neelu Kaur. She's a leadership and mindfulness consultant, keynote speaker, and author who focuses on the intersection of emotional intelligence, culture, and communication. With over 20 years of experience working with Fortune 500 companies, Neelu blends Eastern philosophy and Western business strategy to help leaders create inclusive, high-performing cultures rooted in self-awareness and authenticity.

She's also the author of Be Your Own Cheerleader. And like I mentioned earlier, an amazing keynote speaker we met at a speaker training program and we hit it off immediately. I knew we had to get you on the podcast and I love the content you put out into the world. It's just high quality and authentic. So I can't wait for our conversation today.

Neelu Kaur (01:43)
Thank you so much. know it's been a long time coming, so I'm excited to be here.

Sean Patton (01:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you talk a lot about self advocacy. And we talk a lot about leaders and and not just and leaders of organizations and a lot of people assume that means, you know, in a hierarchy at a higher position, not how I define leadership, how you do, I think we all we are all leaders. But for we talk self advocacy, sometimes it's

It's easy, right? If you're on the top of the task org to step in and say things and advocate for yourself and almost expected to do that. But one of things I love about what you talk about is self advocacy for everyone. So what does self advocacy look like for rising leaders or, or, or new leaders or ⁓ individual contributors in an organization?

Neelu Kaur (02:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, think given the world we live in, I used to think, I was actually told throughout my life that, you know, keep your head down, do good work and your work will speak for itself. And that is a recipe for disaster in corporate America. And I learned it the hard way. I have been downsized and fired so many times that I've lost count. And it's not because I'm not smart or that I don't have these innovative creative ideas. It was truly because I did not know how to be my own cheerleader and how to advocate for those ideas. So I think for

anyone in any part of any organization, and I agree with what you said, Sean, it's not just about leadership as a C-suite, it's leadership. You could be a leader in your church, you could be the leader of your family. Like there's so many different ways we can think about leadership, but the idea for every single human is to advocate for what they believe in and their ideas and so that they're not overlooked.

Sean Patton (03:22)
Yeah, a hundred percent. And so if we got real tactical and someone says, yes, you're right. I need to self advocate because I need to, uh, you know, demonstrate value and I want to contribute. And I have these important things to say, what does that look like from a tactical sense? Or, or maybe what's easier is let's start with where I, why don't people stop advocate? Like, why is it a problem?

Neelu Kaur (03:43)
I was just going to say, would say, let's slam on the brakes there. Before we jump into skills, let's talk about why it's challenging. Because I think when we sort of talk openly about why it's challenging, it takes away like that finger pointing or the self criticism and the critical voice and the imposter monster that we all have. some of the reasons that self advocacy can be so challenging is cultural conditioning. Maybe you were raised in a small town of even the US, like, and it's like, be humble. Don't talk about yourself.

Sean Patton (03:46)
Hahaha

Neelu Kaur (04:11)
Don't brag. We live in this small town. We can't just stay under the radar. You could be from the US and have this experience. You could be from the military, and it's all about the we. It's about the team. It's about the group. And so when you advocate for yourself, you feel like you're betraying your team or group. So it could be a military background. You could come from a collective culture. For example, India. There are certain Asian cultures that are very collective, and they're very we-based, group-based, all about group harmony.

and North America is very eye-based. So some of these collective cultures are Asian cultures, African cultures, Arab cultures, Latin cultures, and these cultures really pride themselves on the group. And so when you stick out too much from the group, it's not a good thing in collective cultures. And so when you raise that way,

When you come into the corporate space, you just think, yeah, I'm just going to do good work and I don't want to the boat. I don't want to do anything that's going to cause any issues. I'm just going to do what I'm told. And then you're overlooked for promotions, for raises, because you didn't raise your hand and say, hey, no, no, no, that was actually my idea. It's because it feels uncomfortable. It feels viscerally uncomfortable to do that. You could even be extremely introverted. Like that's another thing a lot of people say is I'm very introverted. don't feel like

Sean Patton (05:18)
Hmm. So I'm here.

Neelu Kaur (05:25)
tooting my own horn. get that a lot from technologists. You could be neurodivergent where again, you just, you, you spent your whole life sort of like trying to stay under the radar because you didn't want to highlight that you think differently or you process information differently. And so these are all reasons why self-advocacy can be challenging.

Sean Patton (05:40)
Right. So I'm hearing from you is that it's a belief structure that could come from a myriad of experiences and some could be very individual and comes to could be more of a group cultural experience. You know, I'm reminded of, I was in a training program with a bunch of coaches this weekend. were talking around a little bit before we started. And, ⁓ there was a really powerful story that one of the guys talked about, about some of his limiting beliefs and, he's a,

you know, American, you know, white guys, but talking about how his parents come from that sort of like silent generation, boomer generation, right? Where kids are meant to be seen and not heard. And he's, he is like a very outgoing, high energy guy. Like everyone loved to be around him. Like, he had so much to give. ⁓ and he talked about, and he started tearing up when he, when he talked about it, how would he, because he had that energy and wanted to talk that when they ate family dinners, his dad put his own table in the laundry room.

Neelu Kaur (06:21)
Yeah. Right.

Sean Patton (06:36)
And he had to eat by himself away from the family because he talked too much at dinner. So like that's something where you wouldn't naturally look at him in the way he is and say, he might struggle with self advocacy because of this very sort of like open, he comes from this like very unique culture or whatever. But to him, his, his own background and experience made self advocacy seem a challenge for him because of his upbringing.

Neelu Kaur (06:40)
YEP

Mm. That's so like I feel bad that he had to experience that. That's sad. Yeah.

Sean Patton (07:07)
Yeah. It

was, it was a very powerful story. And you talk about that work, the work and the power of self advocacy. think it's, it was just an example I wanted to bring up to show people that, to not take it for granted or not take things at face value of like why something's happened or someone is the certain way it looks a certain way is from a certain background, is it have a certain age is whatever there could be something there or

There could be something you have no idea. You mentioned the small town thing. There could be something you don't even know about.

Neelu Kaur (07:33)
Exactly.

Exactly. And you wouldn't know until you dig a little deeper. And I think that is the onus on all leaders of organizations, of teams. It's like to really get to know people and for people to feel safe, to share some of their struggles. Cause I think we, we, we pride speed and efficiency and we're just like, no, let's get to this meeting, do this, come out with these action items. And a lot of people don't process information that quickly. And so they need a little time. And so that's one of the areas that I really.

work with leaders on is like, how do you create these buckets of time throughout the day where people can come to you? Because they didn't have that amazing thought in the meeting, but you have to create that space so that they do feel safe to come to you and say, I was thinking about what happened in the meeting. I just didn't have the solution then.

Sean Patton (08:18)
I love that. Tell me more about the buckets.

Neelu Kaur (08:20)
Sorry, something just popped up on my screen. Like in the sense of time buckets.

Sean Patton (08:22)
There you are.

Yeah, yeah, you talk about creating buckets of time or opportunity for people to come to you as a leader. Tell me more about that.

Neelu Kaur (08:28)
Yeah, I mean, borrowed,

yeah, I borrowed this concept from, I don't know if you're familiar with Priya Parker. She talks, she's the author of The Art of Gathering. And she talks about how we have to do something called generous exclusion when it comes to the gathering. And in this case, gatherings are meetings, right? And it's like, who are you allowing in the room for the betterment of the group? And who are you disallowing? Because everyone, there doesn't need to be 15 people in a group.

Because if you have 15 people, you're probably not gonna reach to a consensus anyways. And those folks that aren't the loudest in the room, they're gonna feel unsafe to speak up. So it's like, who are you intentionally inviting into the space of 30 minutes for this meeting? And what is the desired outcome? And what will you do if there are people in that space that don't have those quick, or who aren't so quick on their feet? Maybe they're going through something personally. Maybe they're just have more processing time that is required. But it's like, how are you as a leader?

allowing everyone to have those innovative creative ideas. Cause that's what we need in this day and age of constant innovation, constant speed and efficiency. But I think we have to slow down to speed up.

Sean Patton (09:34)
I love that. And what came up for me when you, ⁓ you just said that was how important it is for leaders to get to know their people individually. So they actually build that awareness and I might know, you know, you might be the CEO, know, Hey, I know talking with Sean, doing my one-to-ones like because I'm like leading at a personal whole person level, not transactionally that I know Sean might need, might need a second to.

you know, to speak up or to process something or, or I might need to give him the space to say, Hey, Sean, you took a bunch of notes when we were talking about that thing 10 minutes ago. And now I'm wondering if, if, if anything came up for you there, right? Like, like, you know, really like that, that, that not just treating, ⁓ but that takes a leader, you know, it's your point. Spending intentional time getting to know each individual person so they can get the best out of each person.

Neelu Kaur (10:26)
Yeah, and you know, I don't know if you know Marcus Buckingham's work with Strength Finders, but he really talks about, and this has sort of changed the way I work with people and work with myself as well, he talks about strengths as things that energize you and weaknesses that activities that deplete you. So you could actually be really good at a weakness. If you're on a team and you keep doing something really well, the assumption is made, hey, loves to do this. But meanwhile, Sean feels like he got hit by a bus every time he does it. So it's like, should Sean be doing that task?

Probably not. Sean should be doing a task that lights him up. when he's lit up in that way, he's going to produce amazing ideas and be very creative. sometimes we just have to shuffle things around. There are some people that love being on Excel. I am not one of them. And I could be good at it, I guess, good enough, but it really drains the life out of me. Right. And so that's why I have a bookkeeper. That's why I have an accountant. You know what I mean? Like there are all these things that you just have to understand like, hey, this is something that completely drains me.

And so what am I going to do? How can I shift this? And I know as solopreneurs and entrepreneurs, we have a little bit more freedom. Like we can hire people and do these things. And if you're on a team, it's about articulating that, right? Like I'm really taking, I'm taking on this task and I'm really good at it, but it's just not, it's not fulfilling. And one of the other things that Marcus talks about is that, you know, it can't be a hundred percent of things that fulfill you. Cause there's this price of admission, you know, you have your health insurance, you have all of these things, you have a

a consistent paycheck. his formula is 70 % things that energize you and 30 % things that ⁓ maybe don't energize you, that we just kind of have to do. And so you check in with yourself. you know, am I at close to 70 or am I at like 50? And if so, what can I speak to with my manager and take on and offload some of these things? And maybe there's someone else on the team that loves to do this. So it's a two-way communication. It's not just the leader's responsibility. It's also the IC's responsibility to share that information.

Sean Patton (12:15)
Hmm. So what I'm hearing from you is the leaders need to give, you know, one educate and give space on this. So people understand that and sort of make it a cultural expectation. But then also once they give space for it, individuals needing to make time to do some self-awareness, some check-ins on what am I doing? That's giving me energy. What isn't, what do I want to do more of? Why do you less of? And I mean, that sounds like very fruitful ground for a great one-to-ones.

Neelu Kaur (12:43)
We are, again, it's all about speed and efficiency. so sometimes you're like, ⁓ are we not like, I coach a lot of people at Google and I know for sure like their minutes, like they try to not have 30 minute meetings. They'll do 20 minutes and they don't do hour meetings. They do 50 minutes. And it's like, I know a lot of tech companies, they want some downtime, some processing time and it doesn't work. You're still back to back. It's like, you have to figure out a structure, a system that works for your organization. Every team could be different, even under the same organization.

Every team operates differently. Every team has its own culture.

Sean Patton (13:14)
Yeah. Yeah, that's totally true. see that with right different clients. You'll see a different, ⁓ different cadence with, you know, the IT department versus the marketing department or, know, engineers versus, you know, healthcare workers or, or whatever. And, know, it's interesting. I always say that there's for every mission, there's an optimal culture.

Neelu Kaur (13:24)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (13:35)
Right. So as the mission changes, then there's an optimal culture for that. So, something like a marketing or graphic design or creative space, like those meetings are optimal culture probably looks different than if you're engineering a jet engine. And so it's kind of our, our idea to figure out how this, how this fits into that space of what is that, what does that ultimate ultimate ultimate culture look like? But on the self advocacy piece.

Neelu Kaur (13:48)
Right. Right. Right.

Sean Patton (14:03)
It sounds like regardless of that space needs to be made and awareness is made on getting everyone's input or space to give input.

Neelu Kaur (14:12)
Yes, I absolutely think that. And I think that is the onus of leadership team and leaders of teams and groups and organizations. It's like the onus is on you to make sure that you're an inclusive leader. There are people who are in your room who have those brilliant, bright ideas, but either they're being talked over, the meeting's too quick, there's a quick rush because there's another meeting right after the meeting you're in. And so everything's all about speed and speed does not mean innovation.

Sean Patton (14:39)
⁓ I love that quote. Sometimes we do think, right? That it's just like move fast and break things, but sometimes that is not the best way to move forward. ⁓ are some, know, we were talking about how to, you know, this important to create this stuff. And of course the first step is awareness. And we just talked through some of that, but like, what are some practical things leaders can do to make their teams feel safe and sharing their ideas or feedback?

Neelu Kaur (15:05)
I think the first, like we were talking about the generous exclusion, like who is in your meeting? Like being very intentional about who needs to be in this meeting for X output. Like if it's to make key decisions, you who needs to be in the room for that key decision? And I think when we are very intentional, it helps us like not over invite people. It helps us make sure that the people in the room need to be in the room so their time is being used properly, right? It's all about time management. And I think

When we have too many cooks in the kitchen, ⁓ it's not going to help anyone. So I think generous exclusion when it comes to meetings is definitely something everyone can start to think about and do. And again, that comes from Priya Parker. want to make sure I give credit where credit is due. The second thing I think is really important is communicating that people can come to you after the meeting or creating some office hours or something where it's not as structured.

It's not as time bound. And so those people that are deep thinkers or maybe they need to go back to their desk and like draw through different flow charts and like, however you process information and then come back to the, to the room or that person and say, no, actually, I think this is the way I want us to think about it. And I think processing time is something we've just moved further and further away from.

Sean Patton (16:15)
Yeah, I really resonate with that. Have you worked with particular companies or organizations where you see this done well that you maybe give an example of?

Neelu Kaur (16:26)
I think that the intention might be there, but then what happens is all things happen. Like, oh, now everything's about AI, everything's about speed, everything's about, right? who can, and so then we get caught up in these trends. And so now everyone, like I know the people that I coach at Google, they're on like, they are a marathon running towards X product launch and doing this. And they have different AI things. I mean, they have so much going on. And so it's like, everything's about speed.

And so I think that maybe the intention is there, but things happen in the environment that make us like react to that. So it's a bounce between being intentional and reactive. And I think no one has the perfect formula for that. really don't believe every, no one, I don't believe any organization has the perfect formula figured out because there's so many external variables, right? But we can put our, we can be intentional and just take it as it comes.

Sean Patton (17:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, I could totally see that. And it is, tough in today's world where everyone just wants to move faster and do more with less. And, know, I think there some really, first of I to call it the office hours idea or scheduled time. think that's something that I've seen also be super impactful because the other thing that I've seen happen a bit is, ⁓ leaders or people in the organization sort of like getting their time or whatever getting interrupted by

Neelu Kaur (17:27)
Right.

Sean Patton (17:43)
little asks and little calls and little things all the time. And if you say, look, if it's not an emergency, like from, three to four, or, you know, like you, people know there's a space to, to do that. They can also like save and think on those things. And we've all been there where it's like, we happen to meet like, ⁓ go ask this person. And then if, if we do, if we wait a day or if we wait five hours, we actually probably figured it out, you know, like we probably really need to go.

Neelu Kaur (17:46)
Yes.

Yeah,

exactly. But I think to your point, you know, those office hours, even if no one shows up, just put your phone down. We all are constantly context switching. And I think the phone and devices nearest doesn't help. And so even for you as a leader, like you need time to process and come up with different ways you want to do things. And so we just need to have more device free time throughout the day.

Sean Patton (18:29)
I like that because that's something that again, we have sort of luxury being entrepreneurs, right? To kind of be in charge of what we do in our time of have device free time is a real scenario that has played out. I don't know a couple of times a month where I'm in my office working and I'll be like, I need to make this like LinkedIn post or I need to check on this thing on social or whatever.

And then all of a sudden it's 10 minutes later and I'm like still on the thing. And I'm just like, I'm like, ah, LDL low. And I like run to the other room and just like throw my phone in the bedroom. I'm like, get it away from me. You know, like it got me, you know, like it stole my time when I didn't mean it to.

Neelu Kaur (19:01)
Yes. I mean, you're lucky if it's

only 10 minutes. I go down a rabbit hole and I could be there 45 minutes. I'm like, I could have used that time for something so much better. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

Sean Patton (19:11)
Yeah. The algorithms are getting good. They're getting good at stealing our attention and time. ⁓

so that's a very good call out. ⁓ I feel like we, brought up a, a few really good, ⁓ know, tactics and strategies for leaders running meetings. love the meeting exclusion part. mean, so much it's just like, all right, we're having this meeting through every manager that's available at this thing when they don't actually need to be there. ⁓ so I think that's.

huge and you brought up the, the, the office hours and things like that, you know, being aware of our people. a lot of great tactical and strategic things to think of when it comes to leaders and managers. One thing I want to go back to, guess that we sort of missed was that individual contributor or that rising leader who maybe is in a meeting and is feeling like they're not being given the space for self advocacy. What advice do you give them?

Neelu Kaur (20:06)
You know, going back to challenges, why it's so challenging for certain people. So if it's part of your being that this is something that doesn't come natural to you and work feels like more high stakes, I would say practice in low stakes situation. Practice with your family, with your friends. Like I used to be the type of person, like if I was invited to a group lunch or dinner and someone would say, hey, what do you want to eat? I'd be like, whatever you guys decide, it's totally fine. Even if I didn't want it, I would just go with it I didn't want to rock the boat. That's how it was raised. As a woman, as an Indian woman, you just don't rock the boat.

Like just do what everyone else is doing. then, so I have practiced even speaking up in those situations, which are not high stakes. And even with my husband, if he's like, hey, let's have Thai, I'm like, well, actually I feel like pizza tonight. And to me, I'm like, yay, dealoo in the background in my head, because I know it sounds so silly and he knows that I struggle with this. so we both, he's like, great, thanks. I actually appreciate you input, giving me input because yeah, I find myself going back to that natural, comfortable pattern of, it's fine. Everything's fine.

Sean Patton (20:50)
You

Neelu Kaur (21:04)
I'll just do it. I'll just do it so I don't upset him or upset my family. And I think when we practice in places where it's safer, then it's like a muscle that we're flexing. So then when your the loudest voice in the room is talking, you will have more of courage to speak up. But also there's some things or some words that you can use to come back into the conversation. I call them interruption shields. They're like words or phrases that we use to gracefully come back into conversation. So

We use them all the time and maybe we're not aware of them. some of them are like, actually, I'd like to pause here and interject or I have a thought here or let's circle back to this, right? Like these are words or phrases we use. And I think it's really important to just consistently use those words or phrases because it is like a muscle. We have to flex.

Sean Patton (21:49)
Hmm. That is, yeah, that is great. Um, great advice. I love the, the idea of starting in low stakes and like continuing to work, to work those muscles. What would you say? I mean, you obviously wrote, you know, be your own cheerleader because this is something you've been working on. It's been a struggle in your life. Um, for you writing that book and going through that process, what has been in your mind, the biggest transformation for you?

Neelu Kaur (22:07)
Yes.

Sean Patton (22:16)
in the process of doing the research, writing the book and sort codifying these ideas that you had seen for you personally.

Neelu Kaur (22:23)
think when we have knowledge or awareness, it's power. And so now if I choose to just go along with the group, I'm aware of what I'm doing and it's not like, oh, it's getting out of that sort of like victim mentality. It's like, okay, no, I'm actually just, I just want to do this because I'm aware that I'm doing this. But I think the awareness is the biggest transformation that for any of us, right? It's just knowing what we're doing in the moment so that it doesn't, there's no residual, what's the word I'm looking for? There's no residual like,

can't think of the word, but yeah, resentment. That was the word I was looking for. there's no resentment. Yeah, you got it. We were there. Yeah. So there's no resentment, right? Because you're aware of what you're doing. And I think that's the thing, right? Like once you have awareness, it's like, okay, I am going along with the group, but I'm choosing that. I'm actively choosing that. And I'm not doing that because it's habit or it's comfortable. I'm doing it because I'm choosing to do it.

Sean Patton (22:51)
Like resentment kind of for yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I got you. Got you.

It really that it it's interesting. And I guess it makes total sense now, but maybe for the first time with this topic, as much as I've taken your content, thought about it. It really is a mindfulness exercise.

Neelu Kaur (23:25)
Yes, absolutely, it's all about awareness.

Sean Patton (23:27)
being able to separate yourself from that sort of default pattern and taking ownership and agency over those decisions.

Neelu Kaur (23:33)
Right. And it's almost

stepping into more of an observer role of like, yeah, I'm watching myself do this and hey, it's okay. You know, you're aware of what you're doing. So it's fine to just go along with the group because I turn, I have to turn on a switch on and off based on who I'm interacting with. Like if I'm interacting with family, I just have to switch to a wee mindset. There's no I.

And if I'm with my family, it's like, yeah, I don't have a voice when it comes to dinner. It's like, it's family style. What do you mean? You can't eat one thing on your own. You know what I mean? Like all of these things. So it's a switch. And I often tell people it's like a dial and a speedometer, right? Like there's an I dial and a we, there's a dial and there's I part in we. And based on who's in front of you, you adjust the dial. You're still authentic to who you are, but you're just adjusting and your language would change too, right? So if you're in a performance review conversation,

you have to turn up the eye. This is your opportunity to turn up the eye. So you want to talk about yourself, your achievements, your accomplishments, all of those things. But if you're in a brainstorm or a group huddle, that's when you're turning up the we and you're saying our shared outcomes, our deliverables. So your language is going to change, but it's based on context and it's based on who's in front of you.

Sean Patton (24:39)
What advice would you give those, you know, leaders, rising leaders who, because of that background or because of, ⁓ their belief system really struggle with, you know, we talked a lot about like speaking up in the meeting, advocating your ideas, but I want to give a little more time to advocating for yourself. Like you were just talking about, like in a performance review setting or, or even online or wherever, like,

What kind of strategies do we have to break through there?

Neelu Kaur (25:09)
I think thinking of it as a dial helps, right? Like knowing who's in front of you, what context you're in. And then just like we have to turn up the eye or turn up the we, I think you and I have talked about this, but I really feel like every person in every organization has to be a part of a team and apart from the team. So when you're a part of a team, that's the we. And when you're apart from them, that's the I. And so here you are, you're figuring out your day. And if you're a leader,

you need to have aspects of both, right? Because you're still responsible, you're responsible for the team's success, but you're also responsible for your success too. So in your day, like let's put performance review to the side, just your daily tasks. Like you don't want to have so much task in a part of, you want to have a part from as well because you're still being measured on your leadership, right? And so we want to start thinking about it, not just from.

the performance review those two or three times a year. It's like on a daily basis as well. How are we making sure we're a part of a team and apart from the team?

Sean Patton (26:02)
I love that because I'm such a advocate. mean, if I had to wrap what I at least hope my sort of like brand or message is around is the self leadership guy, right? And so, for a believer that you, you can't lead effectively lead others better than you lead yourself. And for so many people, and usually well-intentioned people, you know,

service minded people, leaders, right? It's all about this identity of giving and serving and, know, put, you know, putting things out for putting other people before you and your team and your selfless and your, all those things. But, know, to your point, if you don't really, if you're what you're telling yourself is like, the more you do that, the more I think subconsciously you're running the neural pathways of you're not worth the time.

Neelu Kaur (26:54)
Yes, I agree 100%. I agree 100%. I think, you know, there's so many schools of thought, like what you're describing as servant leadership. You know, if we think of like all the different frameworks of servant leadership where it's all about everyone else and it's like, well, you're still being measured on your leadership capabilities. And so you are going to be measured on yourself and the success of the team. So

I think if we think of it that way, it helps us feel less boastful or less like, ⁓ I don't want to do this. I'm tooting my own horn. It's like, no, you actually have to toot your own horn and you have to toot your team's horn too as a leader. Yeah.

Sean Patton (27:27)
Yeah, totally. And, and you mentioned, you know, putting that time into yourself or your advocating for yourself and then putting in time for, think advocating for your own development is something that a lot of leaders don't do. That's so critical is, I'm having a conversation with my wife right now, ⁓ around how much development she's getting at work and, and how, you know, and you know, this for high performers, for people that want to do well for like, they value and

that the data shows us as like they value growth and development more than even compensation. They want to be poured into and you want to do that to yourself. And so if you're not getting that, it's advocating in her case, I'm like, you need to advocate to get like an outside coach. Like get someone outside the organization so they can pour into you.

Neelu Kaur (28:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think, you know, we can't know everything all the time in every situation. so knowing that there's a gap, again, awareness, it's like, Hey, I could actually level up on X skills. So how do I advocate for myself to get the budget, to get the continuing ed stipend, to get the coach, to get the whatever it is you need. But it all stems from like us moving away from this autopilot place that many people have gotten into where it's like, okay, I'm going to work. I'm at work. I'm at my desk. I'm doing my work.

And it's like, you just, it's like very robotic. And I think awareness is what is missing in a lot of these instances.

Sean Patton (28:45)
Well, amazing segue, Neelu, because when we talk about, you know, becoming how human, we don't want to be a cog in a wheel. We want to feel like a human being and be fired up at work and be creative and be do the things that give us energy. One of the things as work is changing obviously is the AI is AI in general technology. So how is AI changing the way we show up and advocate for ourselves at work?

Neelu Kaur (28:52)
Yes.

Well, one of the things AI can do is AI could give you talking points. Like if you're struggling, if you put in like, hey, I did all of these things and you put your resume in or your bullet points, like AI will give you some talking points. But if you're not comfortable advocating for yourself, talking points, you're just reading off of a sheet. So it doesn't really matter, right? AI is not gonna go into your performance review conversation and advocate for you. Those are skills that you still need to have.

So I think there's a fine line between using AI to sort of like enhance what you're thinking. You still have to put your thoughts in. You can't just sort of expect it to give you back what you need. And I think a lot of us have gotten to a point where we are not, maybe we haven't, we're getting there where it's just, okay, just look on chat GPT or look on AI and get, put your session description in and make it better. And it's like, is it that, is that your voice? And I know I have a lot of people I've been speaking to are like, well, I'm training it to sound like me.

putting in all these documents so it knows me. And ⁓ I hesitate to believe that fully. I think that there's still some processing, some human development that AI will never be able to do.

Sean Patton (30:14)
Well, I love that because I pulled from one of your piece of content, know, a quote you have that AI will do the tasks, but only humans create meaning.

Neelu Kaur (30:23)
Right, exactly. Even if AI can be trained to be empathic and emotionally intelligent, it's never going to be able to read the room. I don't know, maybe we're getting to a place where robots will be able to read the room, but I think there's just something that AI cannot do and it's really like the interpretation through your lens.

Sean Patton (30:25)
So I think that's a...

Neelu Kaur (30:45)
Only you can look through your own eyes and have that awareness. I don't think there's any robot or any machinery that can do that.

Sean Patton (30:51)
love that's a great example. What are there any other ways or what's your take? Because I believe that's true. And I believe there's more like what are other skills or traits you think that will make human leaders irreplaceable even in AI powered future.

Neelu Kaur (31:06)
Well, getting out of that robot, right? Like that robotic, automatic place that many of us reside in. It's like, you're not going to come up with those creative ideas if you don't give yourself some pauses, if you don't put the device down, if you don't take a walk, if you don't actually sort of stir that creative fire that's within you, nothing's going to come out. So then you're just going to resort to AI. You're going to say, it'll do it quicker. It'll do it faster. And again, it comes to speed, right? And it's like, wait, give yourself processing time. Take a walk. Go do something else that

lights you up and brings out that creative wellspring that we all have inside of us. And I think when we rely too heavily, it's like, if it becomes a crutch every time you're stuck, then that's just gonna be a habit that you go to.

Sean Patton (31:47)
Right. the, you're saying, the more we're relying on AI to do that creative thinking and thought, you know, we're losing the, the, the mental reps for ourselves and our own capacity to do that. So we're actually lowering our capacity for creative and innovative thought by over relying on AI.

Neelu Kaur (32:08)
Yeah,

it's like any medication. become like the effect of it changes, right? Or it doesn't have the same effect as if you're on a medication. So you then end up what? Changing medication, you end up increasing the dose. You have to do something different. If you keep doing what you're doing, your body's going to adjust. So same thing with AI. It's like, if that's just gonna be your crutch and your go-to, then you're gonna lose the ability for your body, your mind to sort of like think on its own.

Sean Patton (32:33)
I also think there's like a ⁓ second, I'm just came up for me right now. was like, I'm thinking of this secondary effect of thinking that, you know, you as an individual interacting and they're coming up with trying to use AI for, it can be good for things like idea generation and, know, throwing, throwing different things you have and getting feedback and that sort of thing, but sort of thinking that that is going to replace sort of the magic that happens by getting eight creative people in a room.

bouncing ideas off each other, right? Like that's such a unique, like those are two very different processes. You know, that's a very, that's a very good point. And I think one that leaders, need to really consider, um, not over reliance on that. And another, uh, as we talk about leaders, standing up for ourselves inside organizations and being more human, uh, another concept you have.

Neelu Kaur (33:07)
Absolutely.

Sean Patton (33:26)
is about the impact on others of leaders or people stepping up and advocating for themselves and how they kind of assist other people you call the lighthouse effect. Can you talk about that?

Neelu Kaur (33:38)
Yeah, so if you think about it when we say self-advocacy, it sounds like it's a selfish act, right? But what's actually happening is as you are advocating for yourself, so you're getting those promotions, you're getting those raises, you work in a large organization, there are so many people behind you that look like you and you're inspiring them to also advocate for themselves. So it is actually, believe self-advocacy is the most collective, generous act you can do. There's, you're leaving a trail behind you and then the lighthouse is really like,

Sean Patton (34:01)
Mmm.

Neelu Kaur (34:05)
You know, you may think you're just going in one direction, but there is like so many people not maybe they're not even linear linearly behind you. Maybe they're in the peripheral and they see you and they're not even in your company, but they read articles that you put out or they read your read your thought leadership and you're inspiring them. And so I really think like we think we're just impacting our family or we're impacting our friends around us, but we actually have such a larger.

We are all lighthouses and I think self-advocacy can be looked at in the same way. It is the most collective act you can do.

Sean Patton (34:34)
Oh yeah. Uh, I want to like yell a preach in the back. Uh, when you talk about that, cause that's so, uh, that's, that's so good. Right? Cause it's interesting how I sort of think of leadership in the same vein of, again, we can't. And leaders and individuals, we can't change. The only person we can change is ourselves, but when we lead ourselves better and we advocate for ourselves more as we up level, um, our ourselves and how we show up.

Neelu Kaur (34:38)
HAHAHAHA

Sean Patton (35:02)
that is leadership. Now you're giving permission or you're inspiring, you're empowering others to seek out the greatest version of themselves because they see you doing it. And I love how you called out, especially in spaces where maybe there aren't people who look like, sound like, have their backgrounds. imagine what you can do there, you know? And I think we see that with like, you know, whatever, like pop culture icons or athletes are like,

Other we see it's almost like an other like, yeah, but they all do it, but not realizing the impact that you can have the power you have.

Neelu Kaur (35:36)
Absolutely. Like for you, it's like if you were in, let's say you worked in an organization and you were fighting hard for paternity leave and it doesn't just impact you. Yes, hopefully you will get the paternity leave, but you might be changing policy. You might be inspiring other dads on your team who need paternity leave. So it's just like, it's never just about us. It's never just about us. It's always about when you're fighting for what you believe in, there's so many other people that benefit.

Sean Patton (36:01)
So what's what's one question that when a leader is listening to this right now, like, what's a question they should be asking themselves to reflect on everything you've been talking about?

Neelu Kaur (36:11)
Am I a good self advocate?

Or what does self-advocacy look like for me? Because I think the first one's a closed-ended question. So the second is, what does self-advocacy look like for me?

Sean Patton (36:18)
Hahaha

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That always coming back to how am I showing up and how am I leading by example? I think that's, so great. Nilo, is there anything in this space that you think is important for our listeners to hear from you that we haven't touched on yet?

Neelu Kaur (36:46)
No, I think that piece about, you may think you're, I have a perfect example of this actually. I was at the supermarket the other day and there was a huge line and someone cut this person and the person turned around and said, I'm sorry, sir, I was here first. And by her doing that, he tried to do that again to other women in the back and other women were like, I'm sorry, sir, I was here first. And it's like, it was like a dumb and they use the exact same language. And I was like, that is self-advocacy. That woman.

stood up for herself and then she inspired all of the other women in the online that that guy was trying to get ahead of. And I don't mean to make it about gender, but what I'm saying is her phrase, all of them started using because it was a huge line. It was before the storm and people go crazy when there's like, they can't get to the supermarket, can't get to food. So it was just so interesting to me because everyone used the exact same phrase. So in that moment, she probably wasn't thinking, ⁓

I'm gonna help out all of these other people online. I'm only doing this for myself, but in fact, she helped so many other people online.

Sean Patton (37:44)
We never know the impact that we're having by.

putting effort into showing up as our best selves or continue to become our best selves. just think that's true across the board. Um, and, and it's something we, we, if you point, go so fast, we run through life about accomplishments and the checklists and everything else. And we're not realizing that, you know, and maybe on both sides, we're like how, how we're showing up for ourselves and how we're demonstrating, uh, and showing up in the world is having

you this, this ripple effect, had a, I since we're talking about, mentioned the paternity thing and I'm a new dad, we talked about parenting. And so now of course my, my whole algorithm is like, you know, how to deal with toddlers. Basically that's on my Instagram is like, my Instagram is like leadership, jujitsu and toddlers. it's my life. and there was a study that, children, won't treat themselves the way you treat them. They'll treat themselves the way that you treated yourself in front of

Neelu Kaur (38:26)
I'm

Hmm.

⁓ I love that. And how powerful is that?

Sean Patton (38:42)
Yeah

So when you talk about self advocacy, when you advocate for yourself, it's, you as you mentioned, such a selfless act. and so this is such important work. And, you know, obviously your, your book is out, it's everywhere. It's awesome. do your own cheerleader, but people are interested in like, I need more of this. I need more Nilo in my, in my, for myself and my organization, where do they go?

Neelu Kaur (39:06)
Well, I'm very active on LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn under Neelukor and I'm also my website neelukor.com. But you're right. You can find Be Your Own Cheerleader anywhere. You can find books. that's, think it's a memorable enough title that you will, even if you don't remember Kor, you'll remember something. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean Patton (39:22)
Yeah, you'll remember beer on cheerleader

for sure. Well, you know, this has been awesome. I'm glad we got to do this. And ⁓ I think it was such a very powerful concept and episode. And again, I just want to compliment the work you're putting out at the world.

Neelu Kaur (39:35)
Thank you so much, this was a pleasure.

Sean Patton (39:37)
Until next time.

Neelu Kaur (39:38)
All right.