105: High Performers, Hidden Addiction: What Leaders Miss About Alcohol & Coping w/Amber Hollingsworth

This episode is required listening for high performers.

During seasons of stress, travel, and constant social pressure—especially around alcohol—many leaders begin to experience a quiet erosion of energy, clarity, consistency, and relationships. What feels normal or even expected can slowly undermine leadership from the inside out.

Sean Patton sits down with Amber Hollingsworth, Licensed Professional Counselor, Master Addiction Counselor, and creator of the YouTube channel Put the Shovel Down, to unpack how high-performing leaders often drift into unhealthy coping patterns without realizing it. Amber explains why addiction often hides behind success, how ambition and addiction come from the same drive, and why the issue isn’t how much you drink—but how much space it takes up in your mind and life.

This conversation challenges black-and-white thinking around addiction and reframes recovery, presence, and rest as essential components of elite performance and self-leadership.

If you’re committed to showing up as your best self—in your work, your relationships, and your life—this episode will change how you think about performance.

⏱️Timestamps

00:00 – Why this episode is required listening
 02:00 – Meet Amber Hollingsworth
 04:15 – Why high performers are vulnerable to addiction
 06:00 – The inability to “turn it off”
 08:05 – Why addiction isn’t about the number
 10:45 – Superpowers, kryptonite, and ambition
 14:05 – Performance vs presence at home
 18:40 – Alcohol culture in leadership and business
 21:20 – Inconsistency as a hidden warning sign
 24:10 – Anxiety, dopamine, and rebound effects
 27:45 – Navigating conferences and social pressure
 30:00 – THC, marijuana, and the slow drift
 33:45 – Leading a team through performance decline
 38:50 – Ownership, accountability, and real change
 39:55 – Where to find Amber’s work

🔗 Links

• Amber Hollingsworth’s Website:
   https://hopeforfamiliesrecoverycenter.com
  
  
• YouTube Channel – Put the Shovel Down:
  https://www.youtube.com/@PutTheShovelDown

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
I don't say this lightly, this episode is required listening for high performers. It also resonated deeply with me personally. We're releasing it during the holiday season when conferences, stress and travel make out call and other habits feel normal, even expected. And for many leaders, that's when the slow erosion of energy, clarity, consistency and relationships becomes most obvious. Amber Hollandsworth has spent nearly two decades helping high achievers spot the patterns

they can't see in themselves. In this episode, she breaks down how high performers drift into unhealthy relationships with alcohol and other coping mechanisms, even without realizing how much it impacts their leadership and their life. If you're committed to showing up as your best self in the new year, this one's essential.

Sean Patton (00:58)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton. And today I am so excited to be joined by Amber Hollandsworth, a licensed professional counselor and master addiction counselor who has spent 20 plus years helping individuals and families break the grip of addiction and rebuild their lives. She's also the creator of a wildly impactful YouTube channel called Put the Shovel Down, where she's built a massive community with roughly three quarters of a million subscribers and over a thousand videos focused on understanding addiction.

breaking through denial and creating real lasting change. You know, what I really love about Amber's work is that she brings a rear mix of clinical depth and straight talk. She helps you see patterns you can't unsee, especially focusing on high functioning addiction, which often hides in plain sight and looks normal, maybe to the outside world, but cost you, it costs you energy, it costs you presence, and it costs you leadership on the inside and can affect your organization without you even realizing.

So if you're a leader who cares about performance, trust and becoming the strongest version of yourself, you're going to get a ton from this. Amber, welcome.

Amber Hollingsworth (01:59)
Thanks for having me, Shawn. Happy to be here. Thanks for the great introduction. Wildly popular. I like that part. ⁓

Sean Patton (02:02)
I'm ex. You are, you're crushing it. It's so cool.

You know, I, I, when we, did our pre-interview call and you know, I think it's important because you're not only is the work you do obviously impactful and that's going to be the focus of this conversation, but you know, you're a business owner yourself and you transitioned into a content and you you've created this successful YouTube channel

What has that experience been like for you?

Amber Hollingsworth (02:30)
I'll tell you what

Sean, building this business and building a YouTube channel specifically has been the hardest thing I've ever done. I like to say getting people off heroin is pretty straightforward. Online marketing is freaking rockin' science and I am serious when I say that. There's so many skills you have to learn. ⁓ my gosh, it is like not for the faint of heart.

Sean Patton (02:50)
Yeah, I mentioned there's a lot of business owners and entrepreneurs out there resonating with that because you do have to, I remember ⁓ when I first started making videos and I had to sit down and taught myself how to use Adobe Premiere Pro and I was like, what is this rocket surgery that these people are doing?

Amber Hollingsworth (03:07)
Right? mean, it's like,

yeah, content creation is, it looks easy when you're just looking at it from the outside, but you know, like, they just like got a microphone and they just jump on there and talk. It's like, there's a lot more to it than that, right?

Sean Patton (03:21)
There's so many, and you pointed

out like so many different skills. I mean, in any business, like, know, under, it's not just, I didn't know how to do this one functional area. I know sales, know production, I know whatever. It's like, now you gotta, from the start to finish, it is a, definitely a challenge. And one of the reasons I, you know, I focus on self leadership and mastering self leadership and why that's so important in every era of your life, especially when you go do big.

hard things like entrepreneurship. So, ⁓ yeah, congratulations on all your success. And I'm really excited, to have you on and you know, you mentioned high functioning, people and obviously, with the listeners of, this, podcast, I would say are a lot of high functioning, type driven people who are investing time, energy and effort in trying to become their best self. But,

When you look at it through an addiction lens, what patterns show up consistently with high functioning people and addiction?

Amber Hollingsworth (04:17)
Well, I tend to see a lot of business owners who drink too much. It's kind of my specialty. It's definitely my favorite thing to see. The same thing that makes people really a type or ambitious or entrepreneurial, it is the addiction part. It's that like relentless, obsessive, I'm not going to stop, I'm going to get what I want part. It's the same part as your addictive part. It's just like a superpower and using it for addiction is like using your superpower for the bad and not the good.

Sean Patton (04:24)
you

Amber Hollingsworth (04:46)
So for me, it's the same quality, it's like the other side of the same coin as far as how it happens to people and why it happens to people. So many really successful people push themselves so hard, they don't know how to just be at the end of the day. They don't know to do like the relaxed thing or the just sit around or just be casual thing and they feel like they're supposed to and so they end up drinking or smoking or something else trying to like...

do that which doesn't come very natural to them always.

Sean Patton (05:15)
So yeah, would you say that if someone hasn't, let's say learned how to, or has trouble kind of putting off switch at the end of the day in terms of the intensity they're living with, that that might be an indicator of like, or at least a maybe a leading indicator or a variable that could contribute to maybe like a slow climb into something that turns into addiction.

Amber Hollingsworth (05:28)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's that inability to unwind, relax, be present for your family. And you know you should be, and you feel guilty for it. especially if you're an entrepreneur, you're contemplating, you're like 100 miles away and learning all these things. And it's just hard to do all those things. And so you can start leaning on a substance super easily.

Sean Patton (06:03)
to help you get to that relaxation mode and that chill mode. Yeah. And when you think about, you know, a lot of people drink and, you I know I'm one of those people too, like you go to the doctor and they're like, how many drinks do you have a week? And you're like, ugh, ugh, you know, what's normal? know, what am I supposed to put here? I remember we used to come, you know, have those surveys we do like in the military and we'd like come back.

Amber Hollingsworth (06:07)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Sean Patton (06:28)
They're like, how often do you drink? You're like, socially. And they're like, how often? You're like, a few times a week. How many drinks are like, you're just like calculating your head. Like how many is too many to put down and, know, did that one trip to Cancun. Should I put that down? ⁓ in your head. when people are thinking about that, maybe just a little self analysis, cause the other end, right. heard people say especially in the self help space or the optimization hack space, it's like,

Amber Hollingsworth (06:33)
you

What's the right answer? Yeah.

Sean Patton (06:51)
no alcohol, like every alcohol is poison. And it's like, okay, true. But I almost to me, I almost see that as like getting into sort of that. Holy right, holy wrong, black and white thinking, as opposed to something that's like, healthy. So yeah, what's your take on that when someone says, I'm not sure if this person or if I have a drinking problem, and then is it a number? Is it something else you're looking for?

Amber Hollingsworth (07:14)
It's really not a number. It's not so much about how much you're drinking or what you're drinking or how often. It's a lot more about how much of your mental space does it take up? Like when you're not drinking, are you thinking about drinking? Do you feel like you're constantly just getting through your day or your week? And it's like everything becomes just crap. You're checking off your list until you can have that drink and you're planning your life around it and you can't.

find joy in other things without it anymore. Now we're set ahead and in trouble. It's about a mental obsession, not about what or how much. Because I see people who are alcoholic who maybe only drink once every other week. When they do, it goes off the rails, right? And then they're like, okay, and they pull it back together and they do good for a while and then it happens again, you know? It's not about being alcoholic. It isn't necessarily about like you have to drink. It's...

A better indicator is I have trouble stopping once I start.

Sean Patton (08:06)
interesting. Are there other, like personality traits, backgrounds, like other variables that you see come into play that at least even like over like a statistically, you know, like speaking in generalities, I know everyone's an individual, but like that you see come into play with people who may struggle with turning it off once they start versus or

maybe planning their life around drinking where it starts to become an issue.

Amber Hollingsworth (08:31)
⁓ you know, lot of the research would talk about like having trauma in your past. and that's certainly a factor, but in my experience, ⁓ especially because I see a lot of very high functioning people these days. a key trait that I see in people is that they, they almost always have ADHD or ADD, which is really, they should like rename that the entrepreneurial gene, you know, like it's all in there together. It's all like dopamine related in your brain, as far as brain chemically.

Sean Patton (08:51)
Yeah

Amber Hollingsworth (08:58)
but a lot of them have like that ADD kind of thing going on where they just have a hard time settling and they hyper-focus on things and they get obsessive about things, yeah.

Sean Patton (09:08)
Yeah, that's interesting if someone is, because those same traits that, I find the same thing too, especially with entrepreneurs where maybe people who are entrepreneurial, but work in a large organization, but are successful because they are creative and they do hyper-focus and they create new projects. Those same traits that a person has used to...

Amber Hollingsworth (09:25)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (09:31)
become successful in so many areas of their lives and become as an asset can now be turned into or cause you to turn in to have issues when it comes to substances as well is what I'm hearing.

Amber Hollingsworth (09:44)
Right. I mean, I would say usually your superpower is also your kryptonite. Same thing, because whatever your superpowers, you have it in excess. And when you have something in excess, can come backfire on you. And so I see it as not necessarily an issue in and of itself. Those qualities can be really good. It's just an energy that needs to be redirected.

Sean Patton (10:05)
So when you're talking about the same trade that's making someone like an A type or successful can also be the same trade that drives them to be addictive, how do we as leaders try to keep that drive pointed in the right direction?

Amber Hollingsworth (10:20)
Well, I feel like one of the things is just work within your own operating system. Like one of the things that I find that this particular personality type, they don't like to just mingle for mingle sake. They don't like to just be so, they don't like to have superficial conversations and do a lot of the things that regular people like to do, but they know they need to sometimes for business and sometimes just so they're not a weird alien and they can just have family and friends, you know? And they just need to have regular conversations and not talk about.

Sean Patton (10:43)
Alright.

Amber Hollingsworth (10:47)
whatever it is that's their passion, their business, or whatever they're working on, because people think that's weird. And they don't know how to do that. So they start leaning into the substances as a way to sort of turn that dial back on that other and just be able to connect on that level. And it works for a while, but then it turns on you.

Sean Patton (11:06)
Uh, know, being completely transparent. Now you said that I actually like very, very well, like I relate to that. Um, and I guess my answer, and I want to hear kind of your take of what you work with your clients on this, honestly, I try to put myself in rooms with other people who do want to have those types of conversations. I'm a, my business coach. I remember was telling me how

Amber Hollingsworth (11:23)
Right?

Sean Patton (11:27)
And again, this is nothing against non-entrepreneurs. There's a ton of people listening to this that are high performers in their own companies. even people were like super passionate about their work or what you're doing. Yeah, high performers are a better word. his wife will be like, we're having dinner with this couple. And he's like, what do they do? And it's, if, it's like what, and his estimation don't have that passion, right? Like they're doing something like, so most people are just like, I do my job and I come home. He's like, ⁓ I literally haven't had nothing to talk.

Amber Hollingsworth (11:34)
Just high performer is probably a better word, right? That like,

Sean Patton (11:52)
And I can relate to that sense of it. So that's my answer, I guess, is to try to put myself more in rooms like that. But that's not possible to do all the time.

Amber Hollingsworth (11:52)
Right.

Yeah, that's sort of my answer is

don't try to be the other person. It's not what you're made for. You know, it's just to be who you are and just accept that that's not your thing and stop trying to make yourself be that person and do those things that you're not you're not designed for.

Sean Patton (12:05)
Okay, yeah

Yeah, that takes a lot of, I guess, courage to be like, this is just who I am and I'm not gonna be for everybody and that's okay. That's what I'm hearing from you. It takes a lot of courage to just be like, I'm not gonna fit in everywhere.

Amber Hollingsworth (12:23)
Mm-hmm.

Right, and you're not gonna be balanced. You people say you gotta be balanced. I'm like, what? In my experience, addicts don't get balanced. I don't even try to get them balanced. I just try to get them to put all their energy in a way that makes them feel good about themselves and not into something that makes them feel terrible about themselves and into something that makes them feel like they have to dig out of the hole all the time.

Sean Patton (12:48)
Yeah, I think that's been my approach because I'm relating to this archetype of person you're talking about right now has been, I've done a lot of work in like conscious leadership, doing a lot of work in meditation and self-awareness. like taking that same sort of drive, but putting it toward, you know, now I can put that safe drive toward just being and being present and like,

making it almost a competition of like, how present can I be? Which, you know, my consciousness should coach me not like, but yeah, like how, you know, cause it is sort of, I look at it. I do think it's important that, even in like as athletes, right? Like the harder you push, you have to recover just, just as hard, you know? ⁓ and I see this with a lot of, ⁓ military veterans and, and, people in my community, especially come from places like special operations where like,

Amber Hollingsworth (13:32)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (13:41)
You're so used to running so hard and, uh, and having this intensity of what you're doing. And then, uh, you come back from deployment or you transition to them, you know, and you're used to being, you're used to running 85 miles an hour and everybody else run 85 miles around you. And all of a you jump into the real world into a corporate job and everyone's going 45 and you're like, what is happening?

Amber Hollingsworth (14:04)
Right? Yeah, exactly.

Sean Patton (14:06)
It's hard to downshift like that. So do you, do you work on different skills to be, to help someone sort of like downshift when they need to, or to have some recovery time or clear their head or work on presence or what are your, what are your, what's your take there? Or is that, is that not as important? It's more important with someone addiction to redirect it toward other actions.

Amber Hollingsworth (14:27)
I I encourage people to find, know, what is the thing that fills your bucket up, you know, that puts gasoline back in your tank? For some people, it's like learning. For some people, it's music. You know, and so giving yourself time for that, I think is important so that you can, like what you said, be your most optimized self. You have to put gas in the tank, right? So we do talk about that, but I'm not overly pushy on the concept of being balanced, which I think most counselors and even recovery people are,

I feel like it's just sort of against the nature. And I think when I was taking a spin class one time, you know, like the exercise bike class and the spin instructor said, no one ever did anything great being comfortable. And that just stuck in my head. And I was like, so true, right? Like, yeah, it's like that.

Sean Patton (15:07)
Yeah, those are my, I have sort of two, what I call my guiding principles for life that I've come up with myself. And so my two guiding principles for life are what I call my two maxims. it's maximize my own experience of life and maximize my positive impact on others. And so that's sort of the filter, I guess, for this high functioning person. When I say person me to look through the lens of making it.

quote unquote, okay to rest or quote unquote, okay to be present and enjoy the moments with my son, to enjoy the moments with my friend. Because previous versions of myself would equated productivity to maximizing myself or productivity is value. And I had to reframe it a bit around.

There's inherent value in just being alive.

Amber Hollingsworth (16:03)
And it makes you better at being productive and optimized. So you have to like almost put it over into the optimization category for it to work for you. It's like, listen, I this and this and this, my meditation. You know, like, and if you put it over there, it's like a little reframe, then it works a little better.

Sean Patton (16:10)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. Cause it's very hard. Cause I've had other, you know, whether it's like coaches or therapy, like to your point, go to that space of like, you need to get like, not put it in that frame of still maximization optimization, not mean maximum. doesn't have to mean effort or productivity like Matt, like, okay, so now I'm going to recover or be present with my family or I'm going to read, or I'm going to do whatever. And I'm looking at that as like me being my best self.

And so it still puts it in that category of optimization. So that's what I'm hearing from you. Like I'm in real time right now, reframing a bit of that under that same category, which is super, super helpful. And I'm sure it is for, for other people when, when you have that conversation and someone, ⁓ when they're trying to sort of reframe or, you know, find the thing and they're just like, you're talking to someone like, I, I don't know. It's, it's work for me. It's, it's, it's about bank account. It's about whatever.

Amber Hollingsworth (16:45)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (17:11)
this passion that I've got, and it's the only thing can feel that gives me that dope, it makes me feel that drive. What do you recommend to them or are there exercise or have them try different things? Like what's the exploration look like?

Amber Hollingsworth (17:24)
Well, one of the things to say, because we're talking about this sort of archetype of personality, is that these same people, they also want to be the best fathers, the best wives, the best. It's not just career focus. They want to be their best self in all of their roles, right? And so what we do initially, because people, when they come to see me, a lot of them are very successful in their functioning, you know, their

running companies and they're running Ironman races and they're doing all the things, you know, but they, they realize that they're, they're falling short and they'll fall short at home first. their spouses are the first ones that are going to notice. And it can be really frustrating in that situation because you feel like you're running 85 miles an hour, like you were saying, and you're doing everything and you're juggling all these things and you're carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders and you just have a

couple of drinks at the end of your day and your spouse is on your case and it can feel like, are you freaking kidding me? This is the only thing I have for me, right? And then you feel defensive and you feel resentment and you feel your marriage start to fall apart first. And then you feel more and more distant and people can usually feel that and they don't want that to be the case. They want to have good marriages and be good mothers and fathers and all of the things, you know? And so it's the seeing that that's out of alignment.

first, I think that motivates people to want to change it.

Sean Patton (18:43)
Yeah, that's very interesting. so when you, I'm thinking through my head of what you just, the scenario you just created of someone who's running, they're doing all the things right. And then they have a couple of drinks in the night and their spouse gets on them about it and they get defensive around it.

Is the defense, are they getting defensive? Is it the variables of they're getting defensive and their spouse is saying something about it is sort of your indicator that it's a problem?

Amber Hollingsworth (19:10)
Yeah, probably so, Yeah. Because the first time your spouse says something, it's probably after something happened that you didn't like. Maybe you drank too much, you said something, you did something, whatever. You know, the things that happen. And the first time they say something, you probably think, yeah, you're right. And so you try to like, rein it back and you try to do some things and then it just keeps happening. And then the more your spouse pushes on you, the more defensive you feel and you, you...

feel backed into a corner and unfairly judged and you feel like, well, she's not even looking at my good qualities. All she sees is this one thing. How about the fact that I run this company and I take care of this family and I pay these bills and all the other things. And I pick kids up from soccer, right? And as soon as like I'm doing all these things and then my spouse is upset about that. And that's because you're not present for your spouse and your spouse can feel that. So if

if you're giving your 100 % at work every day and then you're doing the things you have to do at home as far as responsibilities, but you're either intoxicated or irritated because you want to be intoxicated, what kind of partner are you, right? Like you're not there in that particular relationship.

Sean Patton (20:20)
one thing that you came up with the, that's coming for me now is in our pre-interview, talked about, how people who, do not have a problem usually don't test whether they have a problem. Can you unpack that a bit for me?

Amber Hollingsworth (20:31)
Right.

Yeah, if you don't have a problem with it, you're not overly asking yourself this question. People have a problem with it, they'll take 30 day breaks, they'll take this or that, or they'll set these little lines in the sand for themselves. It's like tests, where they're trying to prove to themselves that they don't have a problem, but just inherently the fact that you're doing that is probably an indicator that you're worried about.

Sean Patton (20:58)
Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense. Now, what's hard about this is how much drinking is in the business and social culture.

What are some maybe tells before we get into some more details on that? Like what are some tells that leaders miss with people on their team because drinking can seem so socially normal?

Amber Hollingsworth (21:23)
As far as like if you have either an employee or a coworker or someone like that that's over drinking.

I'm trying to think from ⁓ someone that's working with me perspective. Well, first of all, if you're in it with them, you're probably not gonna see it. And a lot of times it's not, I'm missing this on, it's like the whole culture, like we're all in it together. So that's one thing, is if the whole culture is about that, then it might be hard to see, especially if you're in it too. If you're not in it and you're just, you really are looking from the outside looking in,

is that you will see that this person is inconsistent in how they show up at work. You they are like, you're like star player and they, you know, hit all these home runs and then they just like drop the ball and it just seems like, what the heck? And there's always an excuse for this or that or the other. it's like, they're awesome, but they're not consistently awesome. And you feel frustrated with them because you don't really understand what it is.

And they'll have a host of reasons, all of which sound reasonable at the time, but you'll see that you're getting frustrated and that person over the course of time becomes less and less of a star player, but because they have been, they can kind of ride on that wave for quite some time before you see it big time. Long before you're thinking, this person needs to go to rehab.

Sean Patton (22:43)
Right, yeah, it's the consistency piece that's gonna be kind of confusing. ⁓ And yeah, we mentioned a bit before, but the one thing that I've learned over the years through some different interactions is around how addicts or, and you can tell if I'm wrong on this, but also people who maybe who grew up with addicts or around addicts.

Amber Hollingsworth (22:48)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (23:06)
have such like black and white thinking around right and wrong, all in, all out. You're either with me or you're all the way against me. That sort of thinking is a pattern I've recognized. Can you tell me, is that true? Is that normal? Where's that come from?

Amber Hollingsworth (23:22)
I'm not sure it's inherently true into their personality, but it is probably symptomatic of someone that is struggling with a substance abuse problem. Because one of the things that's going to be going on with this person is that they're going to be progressively full of resentment and self-pity and progressively unhappy with everything in their life. It's going to start with the spouse, then it's going to move on to work and other areas. a lot of it is because of what's going on.

like neurochemically and how the rebound from the substance use causes you to have a lot more anxiety and feel really keyed up and irritable. Your resiliency is very much down. So even if a person is sort of holding it together as far as doing their task emotionally, they'll be simmering, angry, sort of not in a necessarily like lose my stuff at work level, but just unhappy, resentful.

complaining, negative, and a lot of that is coming from the effects of the substance, the after effects of the substance, I should say.

Sean Patton (24:25)
Interesting, yeah, there's like, they don't have the resilience, like the steadiness because all these other things are adding up inside their brain with the anxiety and the, and it would, it, yeah, is neurochemically, that, is that because there is like a dopamine deficiency?

Amber Hollingsworth (24:38)
Everything feels 10 times bigger.

The dopamine deficiency is a piece of what happens to our chemically. That's the part where you lose the ability to find joy and happiness and interest in regular things. That's the dopamine part. But this other part we're talking about is really a rebound effect. like, for example, when you drink, it releases a chemical called GABA, which is a mellow you out. That's why they call it a depressant, because it kind of brings you down, like, you know, like calms you down.

but your brain tries to put you back into balance through like homeostasis and it tries to re-regulate you by releasing the opposite chemical, which is called glutamate, which is sort of an anxious excitatory, not a good excitatory, but like an uneasy restless, uncomfortable kind of, it's like a go chemical. And so after you drink, you have this rebound effect. And if you start drinking where you're drinking like,

on a schedule, like either every day or every Thursday through Monday, your brain will automatically start producing a lot of this glutamate chemical getting ready for the alcohol to come. Like even before you even drink, it's because it's trying to keep you balanced. So it knows if you drink a case a day, whatever time you normally start to drink, your brain starts to release that chemical trying to almost like get ahead of it. It's that same sort of like a biological rhythm you eventually develop.

And then after the fact, that's why you feel, because some people they have alcohol problems, talk about, well, I don't really get hung over like physically, but anxiety was and emotionally and psychologically, they definitely feel it.

Sean Patton (26:15)
That's so interesting. The body is so crazy. The way it like responds and anticipates and wow, that is just nuts. I mean, in such a cool, interesting way. You know, another part that I see with different clients and I see myself as a speaker who speaks at conferences is like conference culture. Like alcohol can almost like feel like it's part of the job when you go to these conferences, especially if you're a leader or.

Amber Hollingsworth (26:17)
Yeah.

Right. mean, sometimes it is part of

the job. Like, especially if you're marketing or sales, like literally your job is to like take people out and entertain them. Like for real. Yeah.

Sean Patton (26:41)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, which almost always involves

alcohol. And so I'm wondering, how does that environment maybe quietly or not quietly sort of train people into a state of dependence?

Amber Hollingsworth (26:57)
I have had people whose job really was related to like drinking with people because they're in marketing and sales. And I've seen the job like completely turn someone into alcoholic. Like because that because when you do that consistently enough, it doesn't matter who you are, what your background is. If you put an addictive substance in long enough consistently enough, it's going to be a problem. That's just the way that it works. And so, yeah, I've seen that tons of times where it turns into a problem.

Most of what I see is people who are coming out the other side and they're trying to figure out like, I still do this job? Will I be any good at it? Like, what will people think? And the biggest thing people worry about is what will people think that I'm not drinking? That is people's big, it's not even the fact that they're not gonna drink. They're not so upset that they can't drink. They're worried about what people are gonna think about the fact they're not drinking. Like, what are they gonna tell people is a huge concern.

Sean Patton (27:52)
So what are some practical strategies? What do you tell those people?

Amber Hollingsworth (27:55)
Early on, they don't feel comfortable just saying, don't drink, and a lot of people don't for various reasons, then I'll say, put a drink in your hand that looks like a drink. And then when someone says, hey, you don't drink, you say, no, man, I'm good, I got it. You know, I'm fine. And then you just sort of kind of like show them your whatever. And that makes people go away because if people are used to you drinking particularly, you know, and you're like one of the guys or one of the girls or whatever,

and you're all of a sudden not drinking, people will hound you about it. If you try to say like, well, I'm driving or well, have presentation tomorrow, they'll be like, oh, you could have a couple. The peer pressure is real. so if you're not comfortable just saying, so at first I say, well, just act like you just put a drink in your hand, something that looks like a drink. Go to the bartender first and say, hey, keep me in these or whatever it is.

And I think that works. And then eventually I encourage people to, especially the people that are around all the time that they really do, like they have a relationship with for real that they know and they like to disclose it to them because those people can act like a wingman for you. Like they can run interference for you and help you out for one. And for two, just the fact that someone else knows like at a conference, like what you're talking about, if you know your

your buddy John's there, whatever that's always there, and he knows you're not drinking, you're not gonna relapse, you're not gonna drink because you know that John knows. Not that John would do anything, but just the fact that that other person knows that you've decided you're not going to, you're probably not going to. So it creates a level of accountability. And then thirdly, this is the part that's surprising. This is like blows people's mind every time. I tell them it's gonna happen and then they're still shocked. It's like...

When you, I call it coming out of the recovery closet. When you come out of the recovery closet, you're not gonna get what you expect. What you're gonna get is people are gonna start telling you all their secrets. People are gonna start saying, you know what, I don't treat you too much too, or you know, I gotta quit too, or my brother, you know, like I try, they start like confessing. I'm like, the worst thing that's gonna happen to you is you're gonna be getting phone calls like, my cousin, can you not be my cousin? You know, like, that's what's gonna happen is people are gonna get honest with you.

Sean Patton (30:01)
Hahaha

Amber Hollingsworth (30:04)
And you're gonna be like, I had no idea. I'm like, yes, everywhere.

Sean Patton (30:07)
Wow, wow. That's so interesting. Now we've talked, it kind of that's you primarily deal with and primarily see because it's so socially acceptable alcohol, but are you seeing this impact people more with let's just like something like, you know, THC because it's been legalized in so many places and it's becoming way more socially acceptable than it has in the past.

Amber Hollingsworth (30:29)
Yes.

Yeah. I've seen probably the most alcohol and that's probably mostly just because of my sort of specialty, but a lot of marijuana and then pain pills. Those are the three biggies that I see the most of. Marijuana has a sort of a different prototype as you might imagine. And I personally find that treating marijuana addiction is the hardest addiction that I treat and people are shocked by that. I'm like, yeah, the worst one.

Sean Patton (30:46)
You

Really? Yeah, tell me more.

Amber Hollingsworth (30:55)
The reason it's the worst one is not because it's like so terrible that it's going to like destroy your life immediately. It's more like because it affects you so slowly that people really don't realize that it is the problems they're having in their life that come from the marijuana. It's the way I explain it is it's like when you're a little kid and you're playing in the ocean and you look up and you see your mom you wave your hand, look at this or whatever, you know, and then you're not paying attention. Fifteen minutes later you look up and you can't find your parents or whatever and you're like, where are they at?

They left me and really the ocean sort of took you down the coastline there and you didn't even feel it. That's what it's like when you have a marijuana addiction. It gets you so slowly. You're unhappy with life. You're miserable, but you have no idea it's the marijuana. And it's so hard to get people to see it. That's why it's hard.

Sean Patton (31:41)
Yeah, and they probably didn't have the acute instances as much, Like they're not, it's like an alcohol where you're like at like a business social function and you're had one too many, you're fooling yourself, right? Yeah, you're just at home. But is it the same in terms of like you're planning your day around it, you're planning your functions around it, that sort of thing is when you're noticing it with THC.

Amber Hollingsworth (31:48)
Pray.

You made a fool of yourself or whatever you did. Right.

Oh yeah, and it's crazy now that it is legal in so many places because people now smoke marijuana, people used to smoke cigarettes all day every day because the vapes and you can just do it, don't even know you're... It is constant all day long and it's super high potency stuff. And when I say to them, I'm like, if you drink like that, would you say that's a problem? They're like, yeah, you can. I'm like, well, you're waking up smoking and you're smoking three times before lunch and then...

You know, like, it just becomes, it just becomes like part of your day, like all day.

Sean Patton (32:38)
And what are the long-term, you mentioned it, you won't notice till it's you're down the coastline, like long-term. So what are those like long-term consequences that you're seeing from people in terms of like chronic use that has impact, that's impacting our lives now?

Amber Hollingsworth (32:43)
you.

I find that the people I see that have marijuana problems are pretty depressed and unhappy. The people that drink too much are very anxious. People that smoke a lot of marijuana or too much marijuana are anxious, but they're just depressed and unhappy. They're the more depressed than any of the other addictions I see when they come in. They're just miserable. And they feel like that the marijuana is the only thing that makes it feel better. And they're right, and that's because they're dependent.

They're like, no Amber, this is the thing that's helping me. I'm like, yes, it's the only thing that helps you because it's like you're literally in withdrawal and then you don't feel better until you have it. Like, and they, it's so hard to people to see. Plus it's like so acceptable. Like even more than alcohol. Like culturally, it's really hard to get people to see it.

Sean Patton (33:31)
Yeah.

Oh man, I could totally see that. I don't know if this is in your realm, but I'm interested is how, so you have a high performer on your team that is crushing it and is an important valuable team, but maybe they're showing it in consistency and they may have this issue. What are some best practices or steps in order to try to address that as a leader in a company or leader of a team?

Amber Hollingsworth (33:59)
I think it's really hard because as a owner of a company, you've got, there's a lot of pieces here. First of all, do you want to keep this person? I mean, let's just be honest. It's like, do I want to keep this person or am I looking to not keep this person? You you got to think, what is my goal here? And what's my liability here? Depending on what this person does for the company, you know, am I putting myself at risk? You know, like does this person drive a company car? You know, there's all these things to it that you have to think about.

So as far as, know, like how could I approach someone in a supportive way? We could talk about that, but I think it's more complicated than that as like a leader or a business owner. It's not just how do I be nice and let this person know that, you know, I care and I support them and I want them to get help. Like there's a lot of factors that come into play that you got to think through.

Sean Patton (34:42)
Right, so that's such a great point. And then if you made the decision that, okay, this is a person I wanna try to keep, I care about them, they're a valuable member the team, and I think they're capable of it, then what's the best approach in your mind?

Amber Hollingsworth (34:56)
then I would just talk to that person. If you have a good relationship with them and if you're wanting to keep them, I'm guessing you probably do have a good relationship with them. So based on the scenario. And so I would just say, hey, you know, like I'm noticing this, I'm thinking this, you know, what's going on and see how they respond. They could just be like, yeah, I too much the other night and kind of just miss you. They could be like, I know, I'm working on it, you know. And then based on like whatever kind of response you get back, you can just say,

The first level of it is I would say, all right, I'm gonna need you to handle this. I wouldn't say, you need to go. I'd say, I need you to handle this. And then let them see if they can handle it. And if they don't handle it, then help them, like, you know, say, all right, I'm gonna put like some kind of requirement on there. And if that doesn't work, then we're offer you some big help. So the first thing I would just do is, because sometimes that's enough. Sometimes a person's been...

Sean Patton (35:42)
Yeah.

Amber Hollingsworth (35:47)
struggling with it and they want to stop and they know they need to and they're trying they're off and on their spouse's on them and then finally when like that person that you respect either your boss or like just your you know your co-worker at work that you have a lot of respect for says something to you that that gets your attention because so far it's just been your spouse and you can just like make any million reasons why

She's always like that. Her brother was alcoholics. thinks everyone's alcoholic. Like you're gonna tell yourself all these things and you're gonna like dismiss that. But now all of a sudden when your buddy says something to you or your co-worker or your boss, I mean that and doesn't have to be anything huge. Like just bringing it up. Like that hits home. That gets people's attention.

Sean Patton (36:32)
I love the fact you bring that up and you talk about, you know, putting it on them, you know, like it's, this is your issue to handle. and, and I, this isn't really, really the same thing at all, but I know some of the studies in an organization I work with called Novus Global, the coaching firm I'm a part of, they work with a nonprofit that works with like prison inmates or whatever. And anyway, that

What they talk about in the coaching is the biggest thing is having people, if they can get them to accept responsibility for the fact that it's, it's their responsibility that they're there. Like to own it, know, to have to accept ownership of it, as opposed to blaming it on the outside world or how you're brought up or whatever. Like if you can just own that issue or that problem, then like, you know, the recidivism rate basically goes from 80, you know, 85 % to 15%. And so it's like,

Amber Hollingsworth (37:03)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Always a good sound.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (37:18)
Yeah. Yeah.

So it's a, talk about here of like, if you can get someone to say to own, yes, it's a problem. Yes. I'm going to take care of it versus like, feel like they're being forced into a program or a solution or forced to change it. And they can just blame external forces. That's seems what I'm hearing from you is like, that's part of the key. That's the part of the unlock is ownership of, the person.

Amber Hollingsworth (37:37)
Right, you're really right, Sean. And on top of that, the reason I say the first approach is to say, hey man, I noticed this or whatever. And then they're responding, say, you got this man? And let them say, I got this, right? Because if you come out of the gate and you say you need help and if you want to keep your job, we're going to require this or that. I mean, if they've done something major, sometimes you just have to. But I'm talking about just as a person, you notice, right? Then you say, hey man, you got this? And they'll say, yeah, I mean, I got it. I'm going handle it or whatever.

And then you can say, well, if you don't or you need some help, just say, man, like you're not going to lose your job. Just like say the door is open. So you're saying, but it's important to let the person try to fix it on their own because you can force someone into treatment, but if they don't think they need treatment and they don't, you know, they may think I need to cut back, but I'm not like, I don't need to stop completely. I'm not really an alcoholic or something like that. You have to let people do their trial and error to get to that.

So this what I teach family members to like let them try their way first. It's like they have to go through this checklist of things to try all that I call it bargaining. They have to try all their bargains before anyone's gonna come to the point of like I gotta quit completely or I gotta go to rehab. You know that's like even better. You you're gonna do some bargaining before you get there. So that's why I say the first line of defense is say hey man you got this and then maybe you know wait a month or two and then check in with them.

And what you're doing is you're just saying, we can have this conversation. It's non-threatening. Like, I'm not trying, you know, I'm not trying to catch you. I'm like here on your side. You're just making it safe.

Sean Patton (39:09)
Yeah, that's so good. Amber, this is such an enlightening conversation and really interesting. And I'm excited because this is a topic that we haven't. It's one that I'm sure touches almost everyone who's listening, but we haven't gotten into on the podcast. So hopefully it was super valuable for everyone listening. You know, we mentioned your YouTube channel at the beginning, but why don't you go tell people like the best way to find more of your work or, you know, maybe they think myself or someone else needs to talk with Amber. Like what should they do?

Amber Hollingsworth (39:24)
Mm-hmm.

Our website is HopeforFamiliesRecoveryCenter.com so you can go there. I really suggest the first place is the YouTube channel because there's so many resources there. It's completely free and you can like dive in to figure out either what's going on or what you need help with. I feel like that's the place to start and then if you still need some help from there then maybe take the next step.

Sean Patton (39:55)
Sounds great. We will make sure that link is in the show notes. Thanks again for your time, Amber. This has been super fun.

Amber Hollingsworth (39:59)
Thanks for having me, Sean.