114: When Ability Outpaces Character W/ Tim Hawkins

If you think leadership is just about performance, this conversation will challenge you.

In this episode, Sean sits down with executive leadership coach Tim Hawkins to unpack a truth most leaders overlook: your ability can grow faster than your character — and that gap can cost you everything.

From childhood lessons in a broken home to college basketball, from pastoral failure to suicidal ideation, Tim shares candid stories about identity, feedback, and what real transformation looks like.

They explore:

• Why high performance doesn’t equal high character
• The dangerous gap between capability and integrity
• How ego blocks growth
• Why leaders must intentionally invite feedback
• The difference between competency failures and character failures
• How to anchor vision to identity
• Why slowing down may actually accelerate your growth

If you want to move beyond doing more and start becoming more, this episode is for you.

 00:00 – When Ability Outpaces Character
 00:30 – Meet Tim Hawkins: Coaching for Transformation
 01:17 – Leadership Lessons from a Broken Home
 02:52 – The “Black Hole” Point Guard Mentality
 05:00 – From Self-Centered Athlete to Team-Oriented Leader
 06:35 – Learning to Receive Feedback in College
 09:28 – Why Business Leadership Often Ignores Character
 11:33 – Capability vs. Character: The Dangerous Gap
 12:17 – When Power Without Character Causes Collapse
 15:08 – Becoming the Leader You’re Capable Of
 16:45 – Why Character Conversations Feel Uncomfortable
 20:24 – Vision as a Gateway to Character Growth
 21:49 – Competency Failure vs. Character Failure
 23:25 – Character Is Always Being Developed
 24:30 – The Plagiarism Story: The Belief Beneath the Behavior
 27:48 – Small Compromises and Leadership Drift
 29:04 – Putting Away Childish Ways of Leading
 31:17 – How to Invite Real, Meaningful Feedback
 35:30 – The Marathon Analogy: Slow Down to Grow
 36:50 – Depression & The Power of Honest Feedback
 40:13 – If You Don’t Want Feedback, Check Your Character
 41:53 – Ego, Survival Patterns, and Self-Deception
 43:16 – How to Connect with Tim 

🔗 Connect with Tim Hawkins

Website: https://knowgrowgo.org

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothy-hawkins-thm-cplc-acc-9232192a0/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/timhawkinscoaching/

🎙 Connect with Sean Patton & No Limit Leadership

Website: https://seanpatton.me

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanpattonspeaks/

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
If you think leadership is just about performance, this conversation will challenge you. Today, Tim Hawkins and I unpack how your ability can outpace your character and how that gap can cost you everything. If you want to lead with depth, integrity, and real transformation, this one's for you.

Sean Patton (00:30)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton, and I'm very excited to have Tim Hawkins on today. He's an executive leadership coach with Novus Global, partnering with leaders who are ready to move beyond high performance into meaningful, lasting transformation. He's deeply passionate about helping leaders create meaningful impact in the world and his coaching centers on vision, identity, and courageous action. He also serves as the pastor of StoryChurch and is a director of leadership coaching fellowship, a nonprofit initiative directed to developing under-resourced and underprivileged leaders.

Tim, thanks for being on today.

Timothy Hawkins (01:00)
Yeah man, Sean, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you.

Sean Patton (01:02)
Yeah, it's been great. We, ⁓ we chatted a couple of times and really hit it off and I loved your story. So I'm excited to have you on today and to share the wisdom you have. Where in your life did leadership first show up in a meaningful way?

Timothy Hawkins (01:17)
Yeah, you know, sometimes, sometimes you get to experience the meaning of leadership when it doesn't show up in meaningful ways. And I don't want to go toward the negative, but one of the areas that I would say I can go back on and look at was leadership within my family. You know, my, so I come from a broken home. one of, I'm actually one of eight boys and I saw a lack of leadership.

Sean Patton (01:24)
okay.

Timothy Hawkins (01:40)
early on with my family that ultimately led to my parents getting divorced. And I remember, I remember thinking that this was a normal thing. You know, I kind of grew up around a couple of people who experienced the normalcy of broken, broken families, broken homes. And as I got older and I looked back on those times, I realized I'm like, wow, when, when there is a lack of leadership and some of the parts that are a part of leadership, the courageousness, the willingness to

to do things that or become somebody that is sacrificial, like you're willing to do simple things, like say I'm sorry, to actually pursue restoration and reconciliation. Like when you don't experience those things, there's some ramifications to it. And so I remember early on, that was one thing for the.

first 15 years of my life, was like, there's something weird about our family. And not to throw my parents or anybody under the bus, it was just, I just noticed it. Where I began to experience leadership early on was actually in sports. So I grew up in a sports oriented family. Basketball was my thing. And I remember thinking leadership was being the point guard in basketball. Like that was my spot. The floor general.

Sean Patton (02:35)
Mm. Mm.

Timothy Hawkins (02:52)
took the ball up the court and if you had to you scored. For me it was coach I think I have to all the time so I'm gonna score all the time okay. So I remember thinking like it was the person who

garnered the attention. It was the person who all the eyes looked to. It was the person who when the decision needed to be made you know that that was leadership for me in a sports oriented way. My older brothers would joke if they were here with us they'd be like yeah

Sean Patton (03:12)
you

Timothy Hawkins (03:17)
Tim's definition of leadership was black hole.

Sean Patton (03:23)
Just sucking everything in.

Timothy Hawkins (03:23)
Like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Like I had like he's got a very unhealthy gravitas of that basketball or of that attention. And so that's that was kind of the early thing. And I actually really appreciated that, too, because now that when I got older and I started thinking about leadership, I was like, no, there are going to be times where like you you have to take command of a situation, not because you're the only person who can do it, but because it's just necessary in the moment. And

and leadership requires the courageousness even in the midst of like, you know, scary situations to do it. So yeah, I got some unique little like leadership, what it felt like and what I experienced in some not so good ways early on, yeah.

Sean Patton (04:06)
Was there a moment like a coach or an experience as you were playing basketball that helped maybe shift that or was that your experience throughout the whole time I thought it was?

Timothy Hawkins (04:15)
I think I would say I was a pretty self-centered kid growing up. And so again, thinking through like, how do I get eyes on me? My earliest days of playing sports was having a dream of playing college sports and then professionally. And just so we're all clear audience, I did not accomplish that dream of professional sports, but nonetheless, I had that. And so I thought in order to accomplish that thing,

I had to make sure that eyes were on me. And so as I grew up, I would read my statistics and I would read my storylines in the paper. I would make stories as much about me as possible. And I go back and I think about all of my upbringing. Then I've got three boys now. I've got a 10-year-old who's very gifted in basketball. And I want him to be able to recognize early on that

for you to win a game and for your team to lose, if that's your mindset, that might not be the healthiest or most resourceful leadership philosophy. And so trying to instill in him now, what's it look like to be able to activate everybody on your team and to help elevate them and sometimes do the things that nobody else is willing to do. I think that's been a fun part of being a dad, looking back on all those years and recognizing, ooh.

Sean Patton (05:30)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (05:31)
I didn't have it. it didn't, truth be told, I didn't get that from my dad. Like didn't have a correction of that. It wasn't until I got into college where I finally started having like teammates help inform a healthier view of how to lead, how to serve. Like you can actually be a leader by serving others on the team. Yeah, it took a while and I'm grateful. you know, it's not like those years were just totally.

terrible. However, it was a moment where I was like, yeah, I didn't have the best example or the correction early on.

Sean Patton (06:05)
I love the example of, wasn't until you got in that community, right? You got a different T, you had different teammates, a different level of teammates, that then using that team to help inform you of strengths, weaknesses, where you're at and how to perform better. What was that transformation realization in terms of leadership? Having been an athlete.

in one way, had been a port yard one way for so long. And then getting this new data and information that maybe there, there was another way of being that you had to sort of shift into.

Timothy Hawkins (06:35)
Well, it ⁓ wasn't entirely exciting, I'll tell you that. Well, because one of the things is, and I think this can be true, and I've been a coach and I've also been around a lot of athletes, like when you're a high achieving or high performing athlete, I mean, you are just like the best. You don't often want feedback. Like that's not the thing you're going after. You don't like readily pursue it. Now I do think actually like high performing athletes will sit and go, hey, I want feedback because I recognize I don't see things.

But in a team setting, when I started getting feedback from my teammates about just my play, my leadership, if you will, it kind of hurt at first because I didn't know how to take feedback. I hadn't grown up in a feedback culture. I hadn't grown up like receiving moments where like, you know, if any of our audience is familiar with the Johari window, it's like the blind spot that you don't even know you have. Like I never had anybody sit and say, hey, have you ever noticed?

Or are you aware of this? No, I never had that. So when people started saying those things, my defensive nature, obviously, was the first response. And then, I think part of being a great leader is developing the acumen to entrust yourself to others appropriately who you believe are going to help you develop and help you grow. And when you realize like your teammate is actually for you and for the team,

That was one of the big shifts and changes for me. It's like, hey, Tim, I'm not telling you this so that I elevate myself over you. It's I want you to know this because you may not be aware and it could amplify the way you play. It could amplify the way that we are a cohesive group on the court. I think that was one of the biggest differences of the we mentality with leading was I finally was getting people. I had a receptiveness to.

some evaluation of my leadership and of my play that I'd never gotten before. And I was like, wow, this is, this is helpful. It wasn't always perfect, you know, obviously, but it was at least a moment to recognize, like, I have people who actually can help me develop way faster with them than on my own. And that was way more fun to playing basketball in college when that became the realization.

Sean Patton (08:48)
Such a great lesson for so many people as they move up through life, through an organization, through leadership levels where they, again, that whole, what got you here won't get you their thing or that there needs to be, for them to improve that needs to be this.

Timothy Hawkins (09:00)
Mmm.

Sean Patton (09:06)
next level of sort of character development. that's something that I know I see personally, I just see a lack of when I look at the, let's just call it like leader development program space. When I look at, it's just so interesting for me when I came from like every leadership program training I went through. And that's everything from like, you know,

Timothy Hawkins (09:09)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (09:28)
Boy state, Or, you know, boy scouts, right? Like you become an Eagle Scout, whatever, to, you know, wrestling team captain, to being in wrestling, to going to West Point, right? Like the nation's premier relationship institution. Every one of those things, and every time I got into, you know, officer development program, it always started with character.

Timothy Hawkins (09:33)
yeah.

Sean Patton (09:51)
It always started with leadership is about who you are. It always started with a cadet will not lie, cheat, or tolerate those will do. It all started with duty on our country. always started. That was the first discussion. And then I don't see that as often brought up or discussed when it comes to how do we develop great leaders in business. Do you see the same thing or no?

Timothy Hawkins (09:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mmm.

Yeah, and I, because of the work that I do, get to, I get to work a lot with like leaders in businesses, executives, entrepreneurs, and, what, what my experience has been. so this isn't universal truth, but it's been universally true. a lot of the times is we, it's like some of my clients will conflate the difference between capability and character or ability and character. And so the, the unintentional thought is, is like, if I am able,

Capable competent in something then that that means potentially that my character is is developed I can and should do things and that that is not entirely true You know Throughout life. I think it's pretty fascinating that we can grow in our abilities and capabilities at a rate that outpaces our character Typically because we like to give attention to the task-oriented things

We like to attention to the pragmatics and the actionables. And the character component is kind of below the surface. It's sort of there when people call us out, we'll be like, ⁓ okay, yeah, I can give focus to my way of being, but doing is just so much easier. So when you stop and slow down and ask somebody like, hey, like, how does your character inform the way in which you want to lead right now? Oftentimes that question can be received with

Sean Patton (11:21)
you

Timothy Hawkins (11:33)
you know, blank stare because you're asking me to consider my character first. I just need to do, I just need to speak louder or be more wax eloquent or look a certain way. And it's like, well, yeah, but your character is still informing all of those things, whether they go well or not. So yes, I do experience it a lot, which is why the work that, that I do. And I love working with Novus Global in this is like, we're, we're going to focus on

on identity, we're gonna focus on your character, on your transformation first so that that is being grown and developed because when your ability outpaces your character, you can get into some pretty serious trouble. I good grief. I know right now, like looking at the Jeffrey Epstein situation.

Sean Patton (12:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (12:17)
Ability, ability, outpaced character. I have the ability to buy an island. I have the ability to, you know, to do a lot of nefarious things because I have money and power and authority. But when you lack character, look at the nefarious nature and the implication of all of that. And notice how the trail of all that is playing out into the lives of other people in our world right now. When your character cannot support what you are.

able and capable to do, can go very poorly for you and for others.

Sean Patton (12:47)
Yeah, and I make up that the that ability part, right? The doing part. Is it's that it's that immediate reward for getting something done that's like that hit of like, I got that done, I did this and the quick accolades and that sort of thing versus, as you mentioned, sort of this is quiet underlying character and that.

Also, I feel like...

my own life that when someone comments or mentions or speaks about, let's say me or someone else, and they talk about like who they are as a person or their character, it means so much more, but I don't feel like it's often discussed. It's always right. Like you introduce someone on a podcast. It's like graduated from here, did this, did that, that like it's a position title, accomplishment, position title, accomplishment. And there's less of like, and Tim is an awesome dad.

Timothy Hawkins (13:22)
Hmm.

Sean Patton (13:35)
know, Tim is a great husband. It's like, it gets very like glossed over and we don't get that same sort of societal reward in the short term. Yeah, exactly.

Timothy Hawkins (13:44)
That does not provide a dopamine hit, Sean. It's like, wanna talk

about character, it's like, put me to sleep. And the reality is, it's actually, it's like tantamount to the most meaningful and significant things in life. Even on the inverse too. I'm a big World War II guy, love all things World War II from like a research and like just analyzing all the details of it.

And look at what happens when you have a leader with unbelievable ability and Adolf Hitler, unbelievable abilities. The man was highly gifted and extraordinarily manipulative. Notice like his character, because it could not properly appropriately, we would even say like from a human flourishing standpoint, his character was not developed holistically. Now he had a worldview that informed all of that, but just so we're clear,

His character was aligned with his capabilities in a very terrible way, but look how it played out. It's like imagine if you had a character that was noble and desired to cause human flourishing and then match those with those same capabilities and you get something extraordinarily beautiful. And we have a whole two and a half decades of information about what it looks like on the inverse when your character matches your abilities in

Sean Patton (14:44)
.

Timothy Hawkins (15:04)
kind of a sadistic and just terrible way. If we change that though, man, that'd be, it's an amazing thought to think like, what could we be capable of?

Sean Patton (15:08)
How would

I love that question. For me, that's why, you know, my mission is around having people, whether it's listeners, podcasts, or people I just interact with is convincing, persuading, encouraging people to commit to becoming the leader that they're capable of. Because I'm a firm believer that the journey to becoming the leader that you're truly capable of.

Timothy Hawkins (15:34)
Mmm.

Sean Patton (15:43)
is the path to becoming the greatest version of yourself.

Like you mentioned, step up, like, know you said, was like, me to father. I'm a Brahmin. I'm new to this dad game. I'm, uh, my son just turned one. So I'm in the, switching from just keep him alive to actually having to parents a little bit, actually had to like say no and remove him from something the other day for the first time. Um, so I'm just doing my toes into it, but just like, you know, when you, when you say I'm going to lead to your point, like you said, you as an absence of leadership in your family, like I'm going to lead my family.

Like I'm putting on them this mantle, this identity of leader in my family. I'm going to put on this identity of leader in my community. I'm going put this identity of leader of my organization or inside my organization. when you do that, you sort of naturally setting a new standard for your, you conduct yourself for what's acceptable and what's unacceptable. And so when, I guess when you, when you hear that

What is maybe the discussion or the take that you get when you start having discussions like that around character, around leaders, inside of organizations? Like, do feel people are resistant to that? Is it, do feel too much? Is it a responsibility or is it just they haven't thought of it that

Timothy Hawkins (16:45)
Hmm.

Yeah, I think I've had a couple instances where it's like both sides of the coin where for some people, and this is interesting in the coaching world, like coaching is not consulting, just so we're clear. Like you're not hiring me as the expert in your field. I come in and I wanna help. I'm a means by which you get from point A to point B, hopefully more efficiently and more transformationally. And so when you come in as a coach and you're giving emphasis to like a person's being,

It can be a little offsetting when they're like, why are we talking about this? Like, we just need to reach a goal of a billion dollars by the end of the year. And this guy's over here talking about how the gap between where we are and where we want to be is actually a character shift. so, you know, and notice like in our culture too, you know, doing reign supreme, if we do enough, we'll then have enough and then we'll be enough.

And so coming into a culture that is like that, where doing kind of sets the stage, like what do I, what must we do to accomplish said things? And you come in and you kind of reorient them differently. It can feel a little, strange. I know that for myself. Like if I slow down and stop going, well, hey, what do I got to do today? And I actually asked the question like, Hey, who do, who do I need to become today? And what does that version of myself then commit to doing?

Even that extra little bit requires more of me. There's a whole, kind of a whole way of thinking and being. And so I think depending on the, just the organization, if doing has always been the way, it's gonna be strange. And what's really interesting is that when like you put character at kind of the focal point of how you accomplish things, generally speaking, you can accomplish more and do it in a way that is both

Sean Patton (18:17)
you

Timothy Hawkins (18:27)
very satisfying and I would say even quicker. So there's a ⁓ uniqueness to the conversation, which is fun to have in any circles. Like I just got off a call with a brand new client before getting on the podcast and the question we were having in regarding his vision was like, hey, notice how specific your vision is in this thing? Before you start thinking about what you need to do to get there, like how do you need to reinvent yourself that this

Beautiful and impossible vision would become a reality and it was fun to watch as he he slowed himself down and he really thought through it Answered the question and then we strategized around it it was it was an amazing moment to be able to sit and see like he's navigating the character of who he is and When we finished the call he had a great satisfaction because he's like wow I see how this could play out elsewhere. So to your question though is I see it

both ways. Some are very receptive to it. I mean, I'm in the nonprofit space. I'll work with churches. And for any of our listeners, churches are not perfect places, the perfect people. By any means, a lot of churches have a doing mentality and you're like, so interesting because don't you follow Jesus? And Jesus talks so much about character formation. Yes, just notice how heavy the culture is in Western society that shifts toward just do, get it done. Slowing down and thinking transformationally about character.

Sean Patton (19:23)
.

Timothy Hawkins (19:46)
It's not a muscle that I think automatically is being employed. It's an underdeveloped muscle in the sense of how we accomplish things.

Sean Patton (19:53)
So someone's, maybe your client or your organizations, when you see the need for that, and I'd almost tie it back to your first comment of going through athletics in college, there needs to be a mechanism to kind of set and get feedback on where that is at. you how do we, you know, how do we check our blind spots? Like you said before, right? Like they're blind for a reason. So tell me a little more about how

implementing how that mechanism looks when it's implemented well.

Timothy Hawkins (20:24)
Well, there's a couple of ways that I like to employ it. One is like, hey, if we're gonna work around vision, for instance, like let's create a very aspirational vision that excites you and you would normally say is impossible. Your intuition says it's impossible. So that's one way to get to it because then if you're in a place where you're like, that would be so amazing to accomplish and I don't think it's possible, then we're in the realm of great.

this is a character opportunity. Like transformation is now a conversation that we could potentially have. So that's one way of doing it. Another way of engaging the conversation is to talk about failure. And so asking a team like, hey, however you define failure, let's talk about, do you think the failures you've experienced that have kept you from getting to where you are now, are they competency failures or are they character failures? And allowing them to begin sifting out like,

this is interesting. You know, we haven't accomplished this because nobody says this, but it's like, because as a company, we are selfish. We're greedy and we're narcissistic. Okay. That potentially is a character issue. If you came in, you're like, we don't understand the industry fully. And so we think we're playing behind the eight ball. That might be a competency matter. And the great part about it is you can navigate a character conversation in that space, the same as you can with a vision conversation. The,

The failure aspect, I like to navigate the failure conversation in some spaces. One, because failure can be formational. It can be highly, highly helpful. But also, nobody, if they recognize this, failure of character can sometimes be very disqualifying. Like you don't get a second chance in some instances if you're having a failure of character. mean, coming from a military background, Sean, I imagine you probably have stories where somebody failed due to a lack of character.

Sean Patton (21:49)
you

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (22:08)
and it disqualified them, had them maybe dishonorably discharged. I who knows? When you have a failure of competency, there's some opportunities there. Some of those can still be disqualifying, but sometimes competency matters can be trained around. Obviously you can grow in your intellect. So I like to approach it in both spaces, mostly to help people recognize, like, doesn't matter how you skin the cat, character.

is still going to be a part of whatever it is you're trying to accomplish. If you want to look at yourself at the end of the day and be very pleased with not only what you accomplished, but how you accomplished it.

Sean Patton (22:42)
Mm-hmm. You know, it came from me as you described that was how you keep using the word, we keep using this word character or values, but like the could be perceived in some circles or even in my own perception. Sometimes it's like black and white, right? Like this person has character or doesn't have character. You know, it's like you're either, you know, so it's like, have character. Like it's either you have it or you don't type of a thing.

Timothy Hawkins (22:58)
Mmm.

Sean Patton (23:02)
And what I'm hearing from you is that like, you approach it with this feedback loop or you really are approaching character with like curiosity and seeing it as this way of being this character development as an ongoing constant process, something that's never, never complete and can always improve as opposed to this, you don't have character, we need to get you character. When you have character, then you're good.

Timothy Hawkins (23:25)
Yeah, yeah. And I do think we live in the United States of America where I think we are very quick to point out a character flaw and then exploit it as an end all be all. And again, some things from a character standpoint, we could easily sit and say like, yeah, you might be able to grow from that. I can't really trust you again. Like that was such a terrible thing out of your character. And notice too, like,

Character is an interesting conversation because the black and white I think sometimes happens when we forget that character is consistently being developed. And so when somebody makes a really heinous, evil, destructive choice, oftentimes we can point to a lack of character because in the moment, what we see is a implication of things that have already been at play.

If I were to use like in a leadership standpoint, if a leader is willing to lie to the shareholders about their business in order to make it look good, in order to make them look good, that's not a decision you just make because you're like, I don't know how to actually tell them this, that our business is not doing well. Like you don't have that. There's a developmental buildup to it. I'll use myself as an example here. So.

when I was pastoring my first church, I plagiarized ⁓ another pastor's sermon series from another pastor. And one of the things that came out from that was one, that was kind of a disqualifying thing. Like it did hurt my relationship with the church. And I think that was good. It was good for them to sit and say, hey Tim, this is not right. Like, you know better. I mean, I have a master's degree. And so I learned over the course of my education that

that plagiarism is not okay. One of the, if I would say like, if I could like claim an opportunity and it was getting down to the belief. So plagiarism is an action. There's generally an emotion underneath that and then there's a deeper belief. And I remember coming out of that season, one of the things that I realized was I plagiarized because I believed I was not capable, gifted.

intelligent enough to craft my own messages to speak to the people I lead. I had a deep-seated belief that others say it better and therefore I should just take what they have and go with it. So it was naturally a belief about myself. And that was a really meaningful thing because in that moment of I actually committed plagiarism, that had been building up for a time. I had bel-

been believing something about myself for a time. I had an emotion about my own leadership, about my own speaking capabilities for a long time. And then eventually it came to this place where I allowed those beliefs to run their course and lo and behold, I plagiarized. So part of the character conversation is recognizing you are always developing or undeveloping in your character. And eventually it will run its course in a way that it's not like, that was just random. Like, huh.

That guy just woke up today and decided he was gonna be unfaithful to his spouse. No, no, this has been developing over time. So when you recognize that character is always being developed, you can then begin to kind of have harder conversations where it's like, hey, as a leader, this decision you made started years ago, which is why we're not gonna have you lead anymore, because you need time to now undevelop this and regrow in a character that is truly

Sean Patton (26:34)
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (26:43)
noble and good. And so that black and white component, think, can sometimes be there when we just forget it's like nobody won offs a decision that's good or bad. It's a development of their character. Every once in a while you will see, I think there's this isn't a carte blanche statement, you know, the ⁓ the willingness I think about like I've got a I've got a wife and three kids and if I needed to jump in front of a train, push them out of the way, sacrifice my life.

or throw myself at the hands of a shooter, like just go after him to protect them. That is potentially a quick reaction, like in that moment. I would actually say if I'm willing to do something like that, it's because I've developed that courageousness, that sacrificial nature over time, that it's just, this just makes sense. So that's why that conversation of character is so important. You are always.

You're never stagnant. You're either developing in one way or you're developing in another way. And having those conversations are really meaningful because unless something is just truly terrible and evil, we can normally have conversations with people around their character to help them see how you get to this moment.

Sean Patton (27:48)
No, a hundred percent. I, you know, we have these like buildups, you mentioned these like obvious giant character flaws, but I make up that like, as leaders of ourselves and our families and organizations that we will see that in the reluctance to have a difficult conversation with an employee. Like we see something that maybe isn't quite right, but like, I don't want to, that seems, you know, like it's discomfort, but we like make excuses around it.

And then it's like, oh, you can get by with these little things, right? And maybe that starts with you not putting original thought into how you're presenting. So you're just like, I'm just going to copy and paste these other things. And it escalates to maybe plagiarism, right? But it's there's these little moments of character that, if left unchecked or if we gloss over or we're not looking for, right? we're not even looking at like, oh, maybe

making this small, we're all human. we're going to do bad things and be selfish and that sort of thing. like noticing like, oh, that was me not living up to who I'm, who I'm trying to become, who I'm to be character. And in those small moments and inside an organization is like where that goal is to help continue to prune identity and character and values inside an organization.

Timothy Hawkins (29:04)
Yeah, so I'm impacted by the words of the Apostle Paul. He makes this comment, he's like, hey, when I was a child, I acted like a child.

But as I grew up, I put away childish ways of being, of thinking, of doing, and I began to, in essence, live as an adult would. And the reason I appreciate that moment is he's, in essence, trying to touch on the fact that, if we don't recognize, and you made this comment earlier, you can't accomplish things that you've never done before if you wanna remain the person you are right now.

you're never going to accomplish adult-like things by childish ways of thinking and acting and feeling and behaving. And so I think ⁓ there's a beauty to that is recognizing like, and this is why I really appreciate the leadership conversation is you can, if you wanna lead in a manner that's really impactful, just automatically assume this is going to be a transformational opportunity for you.

And if it's not transformational, then you're either casting too small a vision or you're just, you're living a comfortable life. And eventually a comfortable way of leading will lead to uncomfort. I think of your comment about having a hard conversation or having that like tense filled conversation where the kind thing to do would be to press into the conversation with your employee or your direct report. And to be able to say the things that are beautiful, true and good, even though they might

cause some like liver quiver in you versus, cause that serves them, versus I just want to be nice. So I'm going to be passive. I'm going to kind of beat around the bush. I'm not going to be direct. Well, that serves you as a leader and that's not transformational. Everybody can do that. So there's little components where you can recognize no matter where you are in your leadership hierarchy or space in life, there are always opportunities to lead.

Sean Patton (30:36)
Mm.

Timothy Hawkins (30:47)
with greater character. I think that's a valuable thing for even me right now, is I think about some of the people that I'm serving as a leader, and I'm like, how can I, like what's the growth opportunity for me in working with clients that, I mean, I have clients all over the place in terms of just their background, socioeconomic status, the way they think, and am I approaching each of them with like, man, what an opportunity to serve them, to lead, and to grow in ways that I'd never be able to.

Sean Patton (30:48)
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (31:13)
Like that, again, it takes time. It's very purposeful.

Sean Patton (31:17)
How as in organizations or as leaders in our lives, do we invite real feedback? Not surface level, but like how do we get that into our lives?

Timothy Hawkins (31:29)
You mean other than social media? And comments? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, notice, this is the funny part. I think for all of us, first of all, notice we all have feedback for others. Always have feedback. And it doesn't mean it's necessarily like helpful, but we always have feedback for others, which means as a leader, for the people you are serving and you are leading, they have feedback for you.

Sean Patton (31:31)
Yeah, just a poll on Instagram. yeah, yeah. The green swimsuit or the red one?

Timothy Hawkins (31:55)
and how you view feedback, what's your relationship with feedback is going to ultimately determine whether you pursue it, how you receive it. So my encouragement would be if you're a leader, one, one of the ways you can get out of your own way is to actually invite people into those feedback conversations, but also to actually, or I wouldn't say but, and to actually set the parameters for it too.

This is one again. I love what we do in Novus Global. We affix feedback to vision. So when we invite feedback, we're inviting feedback, not just unguarded. You know, it's like, Tim, I want to I want to give you feedback on your hairstyle. You have a bald spot growing next to your your part line. It's like, what does that have to do with anything? Like that doesn't help me toward the vision of who I want to become. So we set the standard for, hey, my vision for my leadership is that you would experience me as advocating for you as

as kind, I'll say the things out of like ⁓ a care and concern for you. And how do think I'm doing as that kind of leader? Like I want you to give it to him, give me the feedback because I think it's gonna be valuable. It's data, I can remain neutral at it. You're not trying to cut me down. When you begin to alter the way you relate to feedback, you can begin to invite people to very specific feedback, not echo chamber feedback, but you can actually cast a vision for the kind of leader you wanna be and people can help you.

to understand whether or not you're actually accomplishing that, whether than making it up in your mind that you are. So I think a part of that is a little bit of like, do you view feedback as this is detrimental to my growth or do you view feedback as just evidence that you can then go and like fertile soil for greater growth? I think that's a conscientious decision. And I feared feedback for years as a leader because I viewed feedback.

negative feedback as an attack and I'm less than. And it took many years of finally getting to a place, even with my wife, where like my wife would be like, hey, can I give you feedback on your clothing? And I was like, no, because you are making a character statement about me if my clothing is wrong or off. And it's like, no, my wife cares for me. She loves me. She wants, she truly desires like good for me. So why would I view her feedback as something that

Sean Patton (33:53)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (34:07)
that is gonna be mean or detrimental. So I think there's a component there with leaders. If you are not receiving feedback in your life, don't blame anybody else but yourself. It's your relationship with feedback that's ultimately getting in the way of you potentially becoming a leader that is highly transformative across the broad spectrum of everybody you impact.

Sean Patton (34:26)
Yeah, there's so much there to unpack. I heard so many things there, including this concept around feedback of determining who leader you want to become. And I just make up that if we, if you just think of like the leader who is moving forward and is not getting regular feedback and not adjusting off it, or not choosing what to adjust off of, and is going off just their own perception experience, and then someone who welcomes feedback and takes it when appropriate to, and they're both headed the same path.

I think we would all make an assumption here, all agree that generally that person who's taking feedback and making adjustments along the way and not just seeing things one way is going to go further faster, accomplish more. And so if we can use that as like the baseline, that is true. And we make, then we can shift over to seeing feedback as, you know, this necessary part of becoming who we're capable of. And so I just pictured like I'm picturing as you talked like

sort of a race in my head is like, that's a very obvious, like, you know, theoretical example that we can all could be like, yeah, to make it sort of clear and obvious what, which path gets you the furthest, the fastest.

Timothy Hawkins (35:30)
Yeah, I was thinking the image that came to mind was like marathon runners. You know, when you're running a marathon, you typically want to keep a pace, you know, the whole time. Don't ask me. I don't run marathons. I played basketball. We're talking sprinting back and forth here. It's like this is great. But like the image that comes to mind is when you're coming to a water station. I view I view leaders who really want to value feedback to actually propel them forward.

Sean Patton (35:41)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (35:56)
as like coming to a water station, you're trucking along, you do not keep a sprint coming to the water station because when you go to grab the water, man, all the good stuff in the cup is going to naturally splash because of how fast you've come to get it. So there are instances where I think like leaders will pretend like they're gonna go for feedback, but they're not slowing down to consider it. And they get a little bit of rehydration, maybe just a little bit.

Compare that to the leader who's sitting there going, I'm trucking and ooh, water station. I actually want and need this replenishment. Feedback can be great insight that then further propels you faster toward the end goal. And so thinking about it from the standpoint of like, if you're willing to slow down to receive feedback, it's like a healthy dose of rehydration for the long haul marathon of your leadership. When you are not wanting that, that can be really dangerous. ⁓

Sean Patton (36:35)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (36:50)
Maybe I'll share a quick

story. Sean, two and a half years ago, I had six months of suicidal ideation and I kept it to myself. I did not share it with anybody. What I thought started off as just like, that's a weird thought to have, continued to spiral into darker thoughts and

One of the things was is I didn't want to share with anybody what was going on because I was afraid the feedback was going to communicate to me that I'm a less than individual, that I need help, that I'm not a leader, that, you know, it's all these negative thoughts about myself. When I finally shared it and then I eventually I decided I was going to go see a counselor. When I shared everything with the counselor, you know, the counselor's like, hey, Tim,

I appreciate everything you shared with me. Can I give you some feedback on what I heard?" And I was like, ⁓ God, I'm paying this man for him too. He's like, you've had so much going on in your life. There's a part of me that wonders if you have not taken the time to adapt to all the changes that have occurred over the past couple of years. And because you haven't anchored into who you need to become in each of these new seasons of life, you have been just trying to do, do, do, do.

Sean Patton (37:39)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (37:57)
and you've gotten to this place where you're recognizing like you might feel very incapable and hopeless. But what if it's just, what if it's just you've had, you've got a new kid, new house, new job, new ministry. There was other things happening like new financial situation. He's like, it sounds like you just haven't taken the time to develop and adapt to everything and it's overwhelming you. And I remember going, wait a minute, so I'm not crazy? Like I'm not less than? He goes, maybe, but.

What if it's something that if you just took the time to really press into and invite others into as well, that this would no longer be a maladaptive situation. And I remember thinking that feedback was so fricking empowering. Like it was amazing. One, to hear somebody say, Tim, I think you actually are just taking on a whole lot. You fricking high achiever. Like, hello. And notice that you're

Sean Patton (38:47)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (38:50)
you are having character conversations in the midst of all of this and that feedback was beautiful to slow down and to hear that to invite others into it. Since that time, like I know transformationally I've experienced a huge J curve. The work and my leadership has absolutely amplified because I have taken the time to receive that feedback and to really like metabolize it into my being. So that that's one of those moments too where

You might think feedback is going to slow you down. What if it actually is a like a nitrous oxide boost in the most beautiful of ways?

Sean Patton (39:24)
I appreciate you sharing that. is a powerful story that a lot of people myself can relate to and be a great reminder of. And also with how you framed just sort of like tactically around feedback, how giving the parameters, you know, like here's what I'm experiencing, or you mentioned before, like I'm trying to become this leader. Like, am I doing that? Like giving people direction.

around what is going to be most useful to you. think that if leaders can take that tactic moving forward, make up that could pay off in multitudes and the effectiveness and change the relationship with the people in your life. When they see that you're approaching them with that way, they're like, ⁓ interesting.

you get to the position like with your wife and someone else or they're like, can I give you feedback on that? Like they're asking for permission to give feedback. Like those mechanisms that you talked about there, I think can be so powerful when put into place correctly.

Timothy Hawkins (40:13)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, and this is just a thought that came to me too. And I think this is true of me. So I make up that it's probably true of other people as well, that if you don't want feedback, you might have a character issue. Like if you if you truly are not willing to go and seek it out, like my character in that season of life was one that I was I would say I was not entirely proud of. not that I did anything terrible, but I just look back on it. I think like

I tried to accomplish so much by being the same person I've always been. That was a transformational era on my part. ⁓ And it was formational. And so if you're a leader and you're sitting here going like, I don't want feedback, I try to move away from feedback, or I take feedback in like tiny morsels, but it's just whatever. Like just be aware, that might be some evidence and an indication that there's something more, there's deeper something going on. There's a belief about yourself or a belief about others.

Sean Patton (40:48)
Hmm.

Timothy Hawkins (41:12)
that is getting in the way of being able to take feedback and say, this is good. And truth be told, if you haven't gotten feedback in a long time, it might feel like a fire breathing dragon right off the bat. But it also might, it might like breathe away all the crap that is truly something you don't want a part of your life. And you're left with those golden nuggets of data afterwards that are beautiful and good, super resourceful.

Sean Patton (41:21)
Yeah.

Timothy Hawkins (41:37)
And then you begin to develop that kind of feedback nature as a way of going forward. But that would be something just like, I just came to mind, I was like, every time I fear feedback, I'm protecting something about me that I don't want to develop and grow. And that, I don't want that.

Sean Patton (41:51)
Yeah, letting ego run everything.

Timothy Hawkins (41:53)
gosh, yeah. Well, and again, just notice, like, we all have survival patterns. I want to look good. I want to feel good, be in control, be right. And those break down into more specifics. And just recognize, like, what about your character is being protected when you're saying, I don't want the feedback? What about your character is being protected when you're like, hey, I would rather just continue doing everything I'm doing regardless of what I'm hearing, because I like to be in control.

Like all those things are just great data points and other people, believe me, what's the, I coined a phrase a long time ago to help me remember this. Like if you have a thought about yourself and it stays with yourself and it ends with yourself, it's likely a deceived thought. Like if it never receives any outside poking, prodding feedback, likely it's a very deceived thought. And who wants to live a deceived life?

I mean, I don't know anybody who actually says they want to, invite the feedback in so that you're not operating out of self-deception, cultural deception. You're actually operating in a place that has a lot of beautiful truth to it that allows you to enjoy life without constantly questioning yourself or questioning others.

Sean Patton (43:02)
Yeah. So good, man. Tim, this has been great. Obviously, we'll put your links and all that stuff that people can get a hold of you. But if someone wants to find out more about what you're putting out and where you're at, is there an email, LinkedIn? What's the best way for them to find out about you?

Timothy Hawkins (43:16)
Yeah, LinkedIn is a great way to do it. You can find me on Instagram. I don't do TikTok. I'm just not there yet. It's not formation enough for me. And so Tim Hawkins coaching on on Instagram or you can email me at Tim Hawkins at Novusglobal.com. One of the things I really feel I do I feel passionate about.

about helping people in this regard that it's like, hey, if you're curious what it would look like for like transformation in character to actually be the mechanism by how you accomplish more, I love gifting people 60 minutes to sit in their vision and allow me to help them expand it to such a place where they suddenly realize like, here's everything I'm capable of doing. Here's everything I'm not capable of doing.

And this is what requires that growth and transformation and just imagine if it happened. And so I like to help people get there. Cause I think as adults, it can be hard sometimes to dream big dreams, especially character, transformational dreams. But that's the joy of the work. So those are a couple of ways that people can get hold of me.

Sean Patton (44:16)
Thanks so much for being on today, man. I great.

Timothy Hawkins (44:17)
Dude, likewise, Sean, thank you.