121: What Hostage Negotiators Know About Winning Conversations w/ Derek Gaunt

What if the key to winning any conversation wasn’t talking more—but listening better?

In this episode, Sean sits down with Derek Gaunt, former hostage negotiation commander and senior partner at The Black Swan Group, to break down the FBI-trained negotiation tactics that transform conflict into connection.

With nearly three decades in high-stakes law enforcement, Derek reveals how tactical empathy, emotional intelligence, and curiosity can de-escalate tension, build trust, and dramatically improve outcomes—whether you're in the boardroom, at home, or in a high-pressure negotiation.

If you’ve ever struggled with difficult conversations, felt triggered in the moment, or wanted to become a more influential leader… this episode gives you the playbook.

🔥 What You’ll Learn

•  Why “when emotions go up, intelligence goes down”—and how to reverse it 
•  The Black Swan method for lowering tension and increasing trust instantly 
•  How to use tactical empathy to influence without force 
•  The biggest mistake leaders make in high-pressure conversations 
•  How to stay calm, grounded, and in control when emotions rise 
•  Why curiosity is your most powerful communication tool 
•  How to handle attacks, objections, and difficult personalities in real time 
•  The difference between winning the argument vs winning the outcome

⏱️ Key Moments

00:00 – Why emotions kill intelligence in conversations
 03:00 – How Derek got into hostage negotiation
 08:30 – Why communication isn’t taught effectively
 12:00 – Leadership mistakes that create resistance
 18:00 – Tactical empathy and influence explained
 24:00 – Handling triggers and emotional reactions
 30:00 – How to stay grounded in high-stakes conversations
 36:00 – Practical tools you can use immediately

🧩 Key Takeaway

You don’t win conversations by overpowering people—you win by making them feel understood.

🔗 Resources & Links

Learn more about Derek Gaunt and The Black Swan Group:
 👉 https://www.blackswanltd.com

🎯 Connect With Derek

•  Black Swan Group (Training & Events) 
•  Negotiator Mastery: Dealmaker Days (Live Event in Las Vegas) 

🚀 If this episode changed how you think about communication, share it with a leader, teammate, or friend who needs it.

 And if you want to become a more effective communicator, negotiator, and leader—this is the episode to come back to again and again.

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
When emotions go up, intelligence goes down. But what if you could actually make someone smarter in the middle of a conversation? That's what today's guest did in life or death negotiations for decades.

Sean Patton (00:26)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton. And today I am joined by Derek Gont, is a former hostage negotiation commander with over 29 years in law enforcement, including more than two decades leading high stakes negotiation teams in the Washington DC area. Today, he's one of the world's leading experts on negotiation and communication, working with organizations to the Black Swan Group, the firm founded by former FBI negotiator, Chris Foss. Derek is also the author of Ego Authority Failure and co-author of Fightless, When More.

where he teaches how to use tactical empathy and emotional intelligence to influence outcomes, build trust, and lead more effectively in high pressure situations. Derek, thanks for being on today,

Derek Gaunt (01:03)
Thank you, Sean. I appreciate being here.

Sean Patton (01:04)
You know, such an interesting, at least to us outside this career path to go from working in the streets in law enforcement to the boardroom. And I'm wondering in that transition as you worked with your law enforcement, what originally drew you to hostage negotiation versus traditional law enforcement?

Derek Gaunt (01:25)
All right. So for clarity sake, most places, your exceptions will be probably your major cities, New York, Chicago, LA. I think all three of those have full-time hostage negotiations teams. Smaller agencies don't have that luxury because they don't have the resources. So it's an ancillary assignment. And so it's not like I became a cop and then went down the road of hostage negotiator. I still had to

pay my dues in other areas of the department. But to answer your question more succinctly, I started my career in 88. I didn't spend a long time on the road before I got transferred to a street level narcotics unit. Now, if you're doing the math in your head, you understand that I came on in 88, which was, we were on the down slope of the crack cocaine epidemic, but it was still running full force.

And so we poured a lot of effort and energy into street-level narcotics enforcement. I got transferred over to that unit and I quickly found out a couple of things number one there is a Drug or there was a drug nexus to every crime that was being committed in the city somewhere along the line where there was robbery burglary auto theft Assaults There was a drug nexus

which means the people in the drug world, because it's a small community, they talk. And it was very, it was very, it was very soon after I started interviewing some of these people that I realized that I could say specific things in a specific manner to elicit specific information from people who initially tell me they're not going to tell me anything.

and I'm able to get information out of them. And I was intrigued by the psychology behind that. And so I started to study a little bit and I got more and more interested in interpersonal communication. And then I did a role play for the hostage negotiations team. And I said, this is it. This is, this is what I want to do. So when the opportunity presented itself in 97, I competed for one of five spots on the team and I got it. And I, I never looked back because it took, it took what I learned as an investigator, as a detective.

And it took it to an entirely different level as far as using your interpersonal communication skills to influence people into doing what you need them to do. In essence, that was my job as a hostage negotiator was to move people in a certain direction. Did I have the force to make them move in that direction? Without question, but I never carried myself like that. I never wielded that over them, even though I had within my authority, the ability to negatively impact his environment. And it was usually a him.

Anytime I want I never carried myself like that because I what I tried to do is create an atmosphere where I identify the negative emotions and dynamics that are driving the person's behavior Demonstrate an understanding that I see the lay of the land the way they see it now notice I'm not saying that I agree with them I'm not saying that I like them. I'm just saying to them. This is how you're seeing things and that's

This is not rocket science. That's all it takes for this world to be better. It's to shut your mouth to what your goal and objective is and listen to what the other side says. And I don't care. The world is replete with conflict right now. So you pick one. You pick a conflict and this idea of interpersonal communication skills would drastically change the outcome of these conflicts or these interactions globally.

Sean Patton (04:35)
All right, so I'm going to take a bit of a left turn based on what you just told me there. I think it's really interesting.

I see exactly what you're saying. makes total sense. getting in alignment, letting them know that you see the world they do so you can then move from kind of a common view picture and how important this interpersonal communication is. I guess my question is like, why isn't this the main curriculum inside of all of our education systems if this is the key to solving world conflict and problems?

Derek Gaunt (04:59)
You got me. I mean, don't get me wrong.

There are plenty of academic institutions that have therapeutic communications courses and negotiations courses, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But the difference between us, the Black Swan Group and them is practical experience. They are in a controlled environment, creating controlled scenarios, and the people are evaluated on whether or not they are successful in those scenarios. And their grade is tied to that. And so...

They can have a contentious negotiation inside of a laboratory or inside of a classroom, but they're ultimately graded on whether or not they came to an agreement. And so they're going to work hard to come to an agreement because they want that A or they want that B or they whatever. And so it's all based on controlled environment and academia. The stuff that the Black Swan group teaches has been has been tested and honed in the highest stakes conversations on

the planet. And so what do we know? When I say we, I talked to Black Swan, what do we know? We're cops. I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't go to Northwestern. And therefore Harvard and Northwestern are never going to let me into their hallowed halls as an adjunct to teach this thing to their people. They're going to keep doing what they do. And so you get these people who spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to get a degree.

And they think that they have negotiation prowess. And the minute it gets pressure tested, it collapses because they don't have a good appreciation of the human nature response, which dictates negative emotions, negative dynamics, drive decision-making and drive behavior, period. Almost every

thing that we do, we do it because we feel like doing it. Everything is based on feeling. Everything is based on emotion. And so our methodology is about removing the negative emotions and dynamics as they see them. Because the minute Sean and I start removing the negative emotions and dynamics that might be associated with this interaction, the minute that I knock those down,

you become smarter.

because you're not looking at me as a threat anymore. Because I've articulated for you things that you either could not articulate for yourself or you refuse to articulate for yourself. And think of a fulcrum. When negative emotions and dynamics are high, rational thinking is low. When I start to bring these down, the rational thinking starts to come up. I am actually making you smarter.

during the interaction by attacking the negative emotions and dynamics as you see them. The brain works up to 31 % more efficiently when it's in a positive state. That should be great news for everybody. Because I can put you in a positive state. I can make you smarter. The flip side of that, that Bear's mentioning is I can also make you dumber. All I gotta do is launch an ad-hobb-a-nim attack at you and I'll make you...

as I'll make you the dumbest rock in the box. Just by attacking you in an ad hominem fashion. For example, attacking your character, attacking your family, attacking your integrity, attacking your competence. All is gonna make you dumber in the moment. And so what was the original question? Why isn't everybody being taught that? I don't know. I really don't know.

Sean Patton (08:04)
Yeah.

Derek Gaunt (08:08)
Even people that are being taught it and the people that are teaching it are not doing it well, and I'm not talking I'm not just I'm not throwing shade at Academia there are people within law enforcement that are not doing it well and so

It's a matter of learning what the foundational skills are. And then how do you get the Carnegie Hall? John, do you know Carnegie Hall Carnegie Hall in New York? Yeah. Practice, practice, practice. That's how you get the Carnegie Hall. And so that's what you have to do with the Black Swan method is practice, practice, practice. Most people won't do it and shy away from it because it's counterintuitive.

Sean Patton (08:27)
to get the what? Get the what? ⁓ how do I get there? No idea.

Yeah.

Derek Gaunt (08:43)
It flies in the face of everything that they've ever learned and it makes people uncomfortable and human beings are, if not anything else, we are lazy and we hate discomfort.

Sean Patton (08:51)
So I want to take a leadership lens on what you just said there, because as we, is that what I thought about when you mentioned that? Because, you know, coming my, you my background, I was in army special forces, green braids, hatchery commander, and in some rooms having discussions, in some tense environments as well. And what I see now when I work and coach with executives is that there's, what I'm hearing from you is that there's a way to lead or command a room that can either.

put people into fight or flight, fear state, decrease intelligence, decrease their ability to rationally respond and agree. And there's a way to interact with them that can raise up the level of conversation that they're capable of having. And what I see a lot of times is leaders aren't aware of their ability to influence inside of rooms like that. So if you had a leader like inside of that boardroom, right, with the C-suite, things are getting heated.

what things if we're a leader inside that room and we want to elevate the level of conversation, things should we avoid and how do we set those conditions to do that?

Derek Gaunt (09:52)
One of the first things is to have a good appreciation of who's on your board. Who's on that board that you're going to talk to. You're not in there in that room by accident. Somebody invited you into that room. So you need to understand who your allies are within that room. Your allies are going to tell you who your adversaries are in that room. Once you are actually in the room. One of the first things as a leader is let the other side go first because

The room that you're about to hold is expecting you to come in with all of your data and information about why you think we should do X. And they're expecting to be talked at. They're expected to be convinced. They're expected to be moved in a certain direction. So as soon as you walk into the room, they're looking at you as a threat.

Because the very fact that you're in that room means that you or somebody is proposing a change in the status quo.

And a change in the status quo makes every, did he just say everybody makes everybody defensive? I, I'm not a big fan of absolutes, but in this case, it's an absolute changes in the status quo that aren't self-initiated, always generate negative emotions and dynamics. I don't care if the change that you want to make is going to make everybody better in the long run, because that's usually where the changes are designed for.

That's not what they're seeing. They're seeing you coming into a room, making a suggestion that's going to put work on their plate that does not already exist. And everybody on the planet is resentful of that. And so instead of doing that, you let them go first, whatever the theme is for the meeting. One of the first things out of your mouth should be, as I was preparing for this meeting, I got to thinking that all of you probably have a

pretty good vision as to what our next steps are going to look like. And I was wondering, would any of you be against sharing with me your vision?

I'm listening to what they say. Don't get me wrong. But this is not for me to necessarily get information to make what I'm going to tell them better. Although that may happen. This is a purely altruistic move on my part because immediately I'm flipping the script. They're bracing themselves to be talked at. And this guy standing up in front of us and says, tell me what's on your mind first. Doesn't happen. Not in the corporate world. It doesn't happen.

And so that immediately those negative emotions start to come down because I am now an outlier. I'm a curiosity. I'm showing curiosity, which makes me curious. And so I start out with their vision first and I'm listening to it and I'm paying attention to it. I'm those things that support my position. going to I'm going to emphasize those those things that

or outside the realm of

outside the realities of the environment. I'd make a note of. And once they're done, I ask permission to speak and then I speak. So you see what happens as soon as I hit the door, it's deference, deference, deference, deference. I know where I want to end up. I know what my ultimate agenda is. I'll get to that. There's no reason for me to rust. This is another thing, and I'm going to take a left turn here now. This is another thing that...

bothers me about leaders.

Immediate decisions that need to be made probably happen about 1 % of the time. No, 10 % of the time, immediate decisions have to be made 1 % of the time. They are an emergency. Every other time, you have time. But the mentality of most people in the corporate world is reversed.

where they're 90 % of their time acting like the house is on fire. Everything is an emergency. We got to move, move, move now, now, now, forget how you feel, forget what you were going to do, move, move, move now, now, now, now. The kicker here is there are some times that that style of communication is necessary. You know, Colonel George Reed that I interviewed for the book, Eagle Authority Failure.

He said he was a director of the War College and authored a lot of their leadership documents. Anyway, he said, when the enemy is inside the wire and I'm passing out the last rounds of ammunition, I'm going to be curt, direct, and almost rude in my delivery of my communication because time is of the essence.

Most of the time, the enemy is not inside the wire and you're not passing out the last rounds of ammunition. So why are you acting like that? And a lot of that has to do with the ego and the positional authority that leaders have. Especially these guys that we call, that I call blue flamers. You know what a blue flamer is? A blue flamer is that guy, that woman that takes very good tests.

Sean Patton (14:21)
No, Tommy.

Derek Gaunt (14:27)
They interview very well, have very little institutional knowledge because all they do is spend their time getting promoted. They just get promoted, promoted, promoted, promoted. And what happens in the organization? People, those people smell. We know those, we see those people a mile away and everybody is whispering. Everybody is talking and those people hear it and they're hypersensitive to the fact that they don't have a lot of institutional experience.

And so what does that create for this blue flame? And the metaphor of blue flame is when a rocket leaves the launch pad to get it into orbit, that blue flame is coming out of the back because it's got to get into orbit rather quickly. But as soon as it gets into orbit, no more blue flame because gravity's got us. so it's just a person that rises rapidly through the organization. So that blue flame now knows people are talking about them and they feel obligated, motivated to justify

to add some justification to the decision that led them to promoting him or her in the first place. And so that leads to micromanagement. And so you got this person who's going overboard trying to show you, belong here. I'm gonna show you how good I am. I'm gonna come down and start doing your work. That's how I'm going to, and the cascading effect is the direct reports are like, why bother?

If he or she going to come down here and change it anyway, why bother? And then what happens is you got people that are leaving the organization. Or worse, they leave but don't leave.

Sean Patton (15:49)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, no, that, that, is so powerful. There was so much coming up for me there about, you know, mentioned leading with curiosity, but what I'm thinking is that the, mentioned like the unknown.

to human beings is always the scariest thing. You talk about change, everyone hates change. think we all like, everyone would be like, oh yeah, obviously, like we get that. And then as a leader, we don't have an appreciation or we're not instituting actions that actually give that weight, that give that, you know, it's due that everyone here is scared of the unknown. And maybe we've been thinking about this thing in our head for a while, or we have this, you know, vision in our head, or we know what's going to happen.

Derek Gaunt (16:04)
Yeah, Yeah.

Sean Patton (16:28)
But this is new to other people. And to your point, the power of like slowing down in order to speed up, you know, how, that plays out, like all that came out. and the blue flame example is a great description of how that happens. Cause sometimes I think we see that from the other end and we're like, that's micromanager. They just want to tell us what to do, but we don't understand where that motivation's coming.

Derek Gaunt (16:48)
Exactly,

exactly and and that's a great point to make because you know, there's a yin and yang to this You know people are always saying what do I need to do to be a better leader? nobody's coming and saying what do I need to do to be a better employee and Part of what you just said is being a better employee. You don't want to be micromanaged quit bitching about being micromanaged and Demonstrate for your boss that you understand the pressure that he or she is under the minute that you do that their requests

will soften just like that because all of us, direct report, supervisor, C-suite, janitor, parking lot attendant, basketball coach, doesn't matter. All of us have an innate desire to have someone else, anybody, demonstrate an understanding of our perspective, of our environment, of our challenges, of our circumstances.

And the minute you do that or you show an interest is that is the minute that things change because I can tell you right now, they're not getting it at home. They're not getting it at work. They're not getting it in their other parts of their personal life. They're not getting it anywhere. And here you come along and you offer that tactically empathetic ear. And all of a sudden they're like,

Sean is the greatest guy ever. It's so much fun to talk to him. And you probably said three words during the conversation because no one is used to having another person seed conversational ground to them. They're just not because nobody does it. So when somebody comes along and does it, you are actually chemically changing their brain. You're getting them high without them knowing it.

Opamine oxytocin are getting dumped into their brain simply by the fact that you are giving them eye contact You're not trying to take over the conversation and you're just listening

Sean Patton (18:30)
So would you make the argument that practicing and implementing tactical empathy is one of the most powerful ways to increase your influence as a leader?

Derek Gaunt (18:41)
without question, your influence as a human being. You wanna get your relationship with you and your kids together? Shut your mouth and stop telling them what to do and ask them, how's it going? Just that simple question, how's it going? What would have to be true in order for this, in the blank, to be better? And just sit back and listen. And things will change in your household. Now, I will tell you, in your household,

It's going to be a bigger rock to push up the hill because they know you better than anyone. And so when you come in and start acting weird, cause that's what they're going to accuse you of. Why are you acting weird? Um, they're going to be hypersensitive to any changes in you, but it doesn't matter because if you tell them that there's nothing nefarious about it, I, you know, I talked to this guy on the podcast and he was telling me about this.

this technique and I've been trying it. So I'm going to use this technique on you in some conversations. I'd like you to actually use the technique with me. Wow. Now you've taken the mystique away from it. They don't feel like you're trying to take advantage of them. And now you both are getting better.

Sean Patton (19:41)
I'd to double click on this because I'm part of a larger coaching firm called Novus Global. part of the thing that we really work with organizations on, leaders on, we coach on is the power of feedback. Like an organization that has a powerful feedback mechanism. one of the critical parts of feedback is letting people know what you want feedback on. so I like take that concept of what you just said of like, hey,

I'm trying to get better at this. I'm trying to get better at listening and I am interested, but I'm struggling because I've just been conditioned that way. I'm trying to get better. I want feedback. Like, let me know if I'm doing this right or not and calm me out on it. Like, I think you put those two things together. Like, it's a powerful example of just like putting the cards on the table and be like, I'm trying to be a better listener because I care about you. And so if I talk over you, if I'm not doing that, let me know if I'm doing great or not. I mean, there seems to real power in that.

Derek Gaunt (20:30)
Yeah,

yeah, no, it is it is very powerful in in in in regards to.

We have a propensity.

when we're trying to influence people.

Imagine it like this. We're you and I are standing on opposite sides of the street

And I'm spending my time telling you, come on over. It's much nicer on the side of the street. Come on over. Come on. And you're looking at the cars. You're like, I'm not, what? No. And so instead of trying to beckon you over, what we espouse here at the group is I'm going to walk to your side of the street and I'm going to stand shoulder to shoulder with you. And I'm going to look in the same direction as you to see what you see. And that

is

That is, that's critical to demonstrate that you understand it's not feeling what they feel. This is why I hate that. You need to walk a mile in my shoes to know where I've been. No, that's no, no, no, no. I don't need to feel what you feel. I need to see what you see. And once I can articulate that, that's when, that's when the inroads are made. the, the, the, going back to this, the family thing and them being hyper vigilant with you, it's doing large part. Well, number one,

they know you better. But also people are preconditioned to what? They're preconditioned to negotiation tricks and traps. And so when someone says, what are you doing? You're doing something. What they're telling you is not that they necessarily think that you're a bad person. What they're telling you is I've been burned by somebody sounds just like you before and I'm not going to do it again.

That's what they're telling you. And so instead of winging out that, my gosh, I used the black swan method and they called me out on it. That's not, that's not where your thought process should be. Your thought process process should be, huh, I wonder why he just said that. Why was it important for him to let me know that there's something there? My gut is telling me that there's more there. And so I'm going to grab that thread or that, that, that string. And I'm going to pull until I unravel that entire, that entire sweat.

but the fact of the matter is it's important for us to be genuine. And as I said at the top of the call to stay curious, even as a leader, there are things going on with your direct reports. They're going on with them right now that you have no clue about. You just don't, there are things that are going on with your household.

that you don't know about.

So I'm always on the hunt for those black swans. I'm always, and I'm always encouraged when I uncover a black swan. Black swan is a little piece of information that drastically changes the direction of the dialogue and possibly the outcome if you uncover it. They're blind black swans and they're hidden black swans. The blind black swans are the black swans that the other side is in possession of and they don't know it's important to me. The hidden black swans are the black swans that they are deliberately concealing from me.

And trust me when I tell you, everybody, don't care what's the state.

Everybody that sits down with you is concealing information from you.

And I know that because when Sean, when you sit down with people, can seal information from them. And so if you're doing it, you better believe that the person you're working with on the other side of the table is doing the same thing. This is why I caution leaders. Understand where you want to go. Understand what your goal and objective is.

but you weren't born on Mount Olympus. And so you don't have the complete picture. And so if you are so married to your goal and objective, you are so married to your agenda that you are unwilling to change, even if you uncover new information, that's a recipe for disaster. And there are a lot of people like that. They make up their mind, they get married to what their agenda is, and they will not budge.

And then they come to me and they wonder what happened. I said, you made a decision knowingly and intentionally based on incomplete information. How dumb is that?

And so never be so sure about where you want to end up that you would not take something better if you came along. If it came along, you have to be genuinely curious as you're talking with your direct reports to uncover other information from them. Not what they give you may not change anything. That's fine. But you got to be curious. The other thing about curiosity is

It'll keep you from responding to your trigger. Everybody's going to get triggered in a sensitive conversation. just, I will never tell you, don't get mad in this conversation. Don't get triggered. It's impossible because it's, it's, it's a, it's a sensitive conversation. and negative emotions and dynamics are replete, which means at some point during this conversation, and I say this to myself when I know it's a sensitive conversation, at some point during this conversation, Sean is going to attack.

I don't know where it's coming from. It's probably not going to make any sense, but I'm already girding myself for that attack so that when it comes, my initial instinct is not to attack back or fold my arms and defy or literally or figuratively leave the conversation.

You attack me during a conversation. I'm gonna take your slings and arrows and I'm not gonna say a word until I make a determination that you were starting to, most of the air is coming out of your balloon. Then I'll apologize and then I'm going to try to dig into where did that attack come from? Because the attack is sending a signal about something else.

So curiosity, I get attacked, immediately go, huh, that is out of line for what I just said, which means there's something more here. The attack comes from one of three places.

They are under tremendous pressure on their side and you have failed to acknowledge it. Sean, I can't tell you how many times I've told bosses, how many times I've told direct reports.

I appreciate the pressure that they are under and it unlocks everything. Why? Because from their perspective, it should be obvious to everyone that they're under pressure and yet no one has ever acknowledged. The minute that you acknowledge pressure, you can loosen the lid on the jar. The second place that the attack comes from is they've been trying to tell you something for a while and you've ignored it.

and they are angry. The third place that the attack is coming from is they're trying to manipulate you. It's more than fruit in the past. And so they know that 70 % of the population will wilt up, fold up and go away. All I gotta do is raise my voice. I'll get exactly what I want. If I slam my hand on this table and say, I need it now, 70 % of the time that's gonna be successful. Why would I stop doing that?

If I'm successful with that 70 % of the time, that's never gonna stop for me. And so, if it's a manipulative ploy, I'm going to address that as well. So what's the point I'm trying to make? In every sensitive conversation, you're going to get attacked by the other side. The inclination is to run from that attack. And I'm telling you, no, stay in the moment. That conversation is going nowhere until you address it. You can ignore it if you want. If you ignore it,

It's coming back later in the conversation and it's coming back with heat because they gave you a chance and you failed on the first one. So it's coming back with a lot of smoke. So stay curious, keep you from getting triggered and it'll help you uncover those motivating factors that the other side either cannot or will not share with

Sean Patton (27:12)
And I'll tell you what, in the sort of modern day and age we're in right now, it's refreshing to hear it framed as like, everybody gets triggered. It's about your reaction to that trigger being called out because we see so much on whether it's online or social. like, well, I'm triggered by that. Be like, that's not really the problem. It's your reaction to the trigger. Because in a recognition that we're all going to get triggered all the time. So it's really an indication of like,

Derek Gaunt (27:31)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (27:37)
How are you developing as a human being to deal with the fact that you're going to walk through life and constantly be triggered? Put the onus and ownership, I feel like, back on us of how we handle that trigger.

Derek Gaunt (27:43)
Yeah, without question.

There's a chasm in between the stimulus and the response. And then that chasm, you can make a decision. How am I going to respond? Which is a beautiful thing because to your point, the onus is on me now. I've got control. Good God, we can't control a lot of things in life. So the things that we can't control, let's latch onto those things and ride them into the dirt. I don't understand, but you mentioned something about socials.

And I was talking about earlier about this, the innate desire that everyone has to have somebody else listen to them. This phenomenon is, can be viewed real time. Just go onto YouTube.

watch the video of your choice, go to the comments and watch the one, the first person that craps on the video gets responded to by a fan of the video and those two will go back and forth for weeks yelling at each other, talking about how each of them suck. And they do that because each of them say, I finally got somebody listening to me. This is how prevalent

deaf ears are. And I don't mean that disparagingly, you know what I'm saying. Deaf ears when it comes to what's truly driving the other side, we are so starved for that even a fight in a comment section on YouTube gives us those dopamine hits, makes us feel good. Because why? We've got somebody listening to us.

Sean Patton (28:59)
So true. You know, obviously you were trained and dealt with for years and expert in these high stakes, high pressure situations. And hopefully if someone's talking or listening to this, they're doing some, maybe feels like high pressure, maybe not in the same way, but still feels high pressure and the stakes feel high. mean, there's high stakes conversations that impact people's lives, but that's personal, whether that's talking about a business deal or something like that. I'm wondering what your advice techniques

strategy is around staying grounded when the stakes feel high.

Derek Gaunt (29:28)
when defined staying grounded.

Sean Patton (29:31)
Staying, I would say, regulated and in control.

Derek Gaunt (29:34)
Okay, gotcha. All right, so, stakes being high are a contributor to your negative state.

Does the the sensitive nature of the conversation is a contributor to your negative state? If I ask you to close your eyes right now and think about a negotiation, I guarantee you it's not going to be a pleasant thought. And so everybody is is amped up. When you go into these things, regardless of what the side looks like on the inside, everybody is dealing with some level of negative emotions and negative dynamics associated with the interaction.

That happens in every conversation where the words I want or I need or in my head or in my counterparts head. That means there are going to be negative emotions on dynamics because I know that as soon as I leave my conversation with you, Sean, if we're in a negotiation or conversation or sense of conversation, I know that when I leave your presence, the chances that I have something less than what I have right now are really good. And so

I'm already in a negative state. Now, let's just take this to another level. You're my boss on your direct report.

As soon as I see you, I don't care how pleasant you are, as soon as I see you, I get put into a negative state. Did you know you had that effect on your people, Sean? As soon as you walk into the room, on some level, you're putting them into a negative state because there's there's positional authority there and they are always and they they're they're subordinate. So they are always feeling judged.

And so as a boss, as a leader, it's incumbent upon you to do everything in your power to remove yourself as a threat in that conversation because as long as you are a threat, meaningful dialogue is not going to take place. Now, this idea of staying grounded in the sensitive conversation starts before you get into the room.

We already talked about the curiosity. I'm not going to beat that over the head anymore. Very important for you. This is mindset that we're talking about now. Assume.

that you're going to get jumped on in the conversation at some point.

And with assuming that that's going to happen along with the curiosity, that's what tamps down the trigger. So instead of getting angry at you for yelling at me, I'm going to say.

That was weird. Something's driving it. Let me probe it. The next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to find someone that I trust, someone that will listen and not judge. And I'm going to vent to them about this upcoming conversation. Soup to nuts, all the warts, all the blemishes, all the attractiveness. I'm going to dump everything out. The more I dump out,

before I get into the room, the less likely it's going to come out while I'm in the room. This is all about understanding yourself, self-regulating, et cetera. Doing your homework before you get into the room. We've got three different personality types within the Black Swan Method. I am an analyst. I am, am, show me the steps, show me the data, give me 72 hours, I'll make the decision.

That doesn't work for an assertive. So I need to know, am I going in to talk with an assertive? Because an assertive is not gonna wanna play a bunch of numbers games with me. They want to know now in the moment, am I on board or not? The accommodator wants to talk about other things unrelated to why we're there. I'm going to have to entertain some of that before we get down to business. So it's a matter of understanding the personality types that you're going to be dealing with in this sensitive conversation.

If you're smart enough and I'm sure that everybody that listens to you is, you know, if I ask you, give me seven objections that you hear on a regular basis, it would take you less than 10 seconds to write them down. Those objections now become your accusations audits before the conversation. And you take those off of the table, out of consideration. You take their power, their sting away because you're going to mention them first. But the other thing as far as mindset is concerned is

to go into the conversation and remember, remember, remember.

The person with whom you're dealing, whether it's internal or external, is not the adversary. The issue is the adversary. You're bringing an employee to talk about a performance improvement plan.

You know that you can't go in to that or you should know you can't go into that conversation swinging your authority around like it's a morning star. Right? You've got to go into that conversation and say to yourself, this person is not the issue. The issue is their performance. My job is to turn this person into a teammate to help.

me solve this performance problem. So instead of looking at them as the enemy, look at them as a potential teammate in a problem solving venture. So how do you, how do you stay grounded in the moment? It starts before you get in the moment. When you're in the moment, we've already talked about how to handle the attacks and we talked about

curiosity. Listen, I'm going to give you something that will bail you out in almost every single hard conversation when you can't think of something to respond with. When a person says something to you that you don't like.

that confuses you, sounds weird, is insulting, or they ask a terrible question. They ask you question A, they want the answer to question B, but they won't ask you question B. You find yourself stuck with how to manage that, simply say to them, it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. It sounds like you have a reason for asking that. Because as far as I know,

Everybody that I've ever talked to has had a reason for everything that they said and so You will find that when you use that number one It'll bail you out if you find yourself struggling for something to say number two You will find that what they actually said was not what they meant You will find the question that they asked was not the question that they wanted answered people make bad statements and make in in terrible questions all of the time, so

Do yourself a favor before you get into a trick bag of answering a question that you don't want the answer to. Make sure you're clear on where that's coming from. In the moment, we talked about the attack coming out of left field. All right, I didn't see it coming, and there it is. Bam. It hits me. One of the first things that I have to do is label myself. Now, for those that are listening, the label is a verbal observation.

It's a technique by the Black Swan Group where we verbalize what we observing from.

counterpart. And so this is and the structure of the label is it looks like it seems like it sounds like.

You could also do that for yourself. So if Sean attacks me during the conversation, I'll say to myself,

He's starting to make me angry. He's starting to really... And the minute that I start doing that...

I start to regulate myself internally. There are studies that you can find on the interwebs that will show you tests that were done where participants were hooked up to fMRIs and they were shown graphic images. And so let's say for the sake of this discussion, we're talking about a mutilated cat. showed a picture of this mutilated cat.

and the electricity in the hippocampus and the amygdala is going that ass crazy. It looks like a thunderstorm in the summer. There's electricity going back and forth everywhere. And the facilitator for the experiment, as soon as they ask the participant, what are you feeling right now? And the moment that they said disgust, the electricity in the hippocampus and the amygdala starts to dissipate.

And so what does that tell us? That tells us that even a self-label will bring the negative emotions down. So I'm going to self-label. I'm gonna let you finish your tirade and then I'm gonna hit you with that. It seems like you have a reason for saying what you just said.

Sean Patton (36:39)
Man, Derek, there was so much gold. It was dense in the best way with a bunch of great information. I know myself, others are very interested in obviously taking all this and being able to start applying it in practice. You mentioned practice, practice, practice. Maybe we make that the title of this episode. And you guys have an event coming up in Las Vegas next month, right?

Derek Gaunt (37:00)
Yeah, the 15th we've got the Negotiator Mastery Dealmaker days. It's eight hours of in-person stuff with our coaching staff in Vegas where we sharpen blades. We give a little advice. We do some pushups with the Black Swan method and we send them out of the door eight hours later, re-energized and ready to take on the world. So if you can join us, go to Black Swan Ltd.com and ticket information is available.

Sean Patton (37:23)
Awesome. And Eric, I appreciate your time today. I appreciate your service and I appreciate the work you continue to do to help us all become better communicators in everything we do, both personally and professionally.

Derek Gaunt (37:37)
Thanks for showing, I appreciate it man.

Sean Patton (37:38)
Take care, man.