123: Establishing the Leadership Distinction That Separates Good from Great w/Danny Bowers

Have you ever felt like you're working harder than ever but still not leading the way you know you're capable of? You're not alone — and in this episode, you're going to find out exactly why that happens and what to do about it.

Sean sits down with Danny Bowers, an executive coach with Novus Global and 23+ years of experience coaching leaders across business, athletics, education, and nonprofits, to break down the hidden patterns that keep high performers stuck — and the mindset shifts that change everything.

In this episode, you'll learn:

• Why imposter syndrome is not a warning sign — and how to use it as fuel instead of letting it hold you back
• The real difference between responsibility and ownership, and why closing that gap is what separates good leaders from truly great ones
• How to stop letting pressure run your leadership — and how to use it as a strategic tool instead
• The Vision-Reality Gap framework that helps you turn an overwhelming goal into a clear, actionable first step
• Why your professional vision alone will never be enough — and how to build a holistic vision that makes every area of your life work together

If you're a leader who's ready to stop operating in reactive mode and start leading with clarity, conviction, and real ownership — this conversation is exactly what you need to hear.

Episode Chapters

[00:00] — The "I'm not good enough" voice most leaders never talk about 

[02:47] — Reframing imposter syndrome as a signal, not a warning 

[08:02] — How to shift your worldview — and why most leaders don't know they can 

[14:14] — Responsibility vs. ownership: what actually separates good leaders from great ones

[19:20] — The spirit of generosity and how it builds influence at every level [22:40] — Pressure as fuel: when it drives you forward and when it burns you out [27:34] — The Vision-Reality Gap: how to "love the gap" instead of resenting it [33:14] — Building a holistic vision that covers your whole world — not just work [37:03] — The 5-person question that reframes every goal you're chasing

Key Takeaways

• Imposter syndrome isn't a red flag — it's a signal that you're doing something new. Add "yet" to the end of "I don't know how to do this."
• There's a real difference between responsibility (completing the task) and ownership (being committed to the outcome at a higher level).
• High performers who over-index on pressure often burn out themselves and their teams. The question isn't whether pressure exists — it's what it's connected to.
• Vision without a gap strategy creates anxiety. Getting clear on the first gap to close shifts you from overwhelm to momentum.
• Your vision should account for your whole world — professional, relational, and personal. If it doesn't, you'll hit your goals and still feel like something's missing.

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No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean Patton (00:00)
Have you ever felt like you're not actually good enough for the role you're in? Like somehow you slip through the cracks and people are gonna find out? That voice is more common than you think. Today, Danny Bowers and I break down how leaders move past that and step into real ownership and confidence.

Sean Patton (00:29)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership Podcast. am your host, Sean Patton. Today I am joined by Danny Bowers. He's an executive coach with Novus Global who helps leaders move from pressure driven performance into clarity, ownership, and conviction. With over two decades of experience across business, education, athletics, and nonprofits, Danny has worked with leaders at every level to break free from reactive patterns and lead with intention. Known for his calm, direct presence, he challenges leaders to slow down, focus on what truly matters, and build sustainable growth in high demand environments.

Thanks for being on today, man.

Danny Bowers (00:58)
Sean, thanks for having me, man. Looking forward to the time.

Sean Patton (01:00)
And this, yeah, this is going to be a great conversation. You have, I, you and I have done some, some work together and had many conversations that, ⁓ I always gain huge value from. So I know that our listeners are going to get that today as well. I wonder why, you know, you've worked in these different environments. You've worked in athletics. You've got this huge experience in, nonprofit leadership and, as an executive coach in different industries, what patterns have you seen?

across industry that you've seen leaders struggle with.

Danny Bowers (01:30)
Yeah, I appreciate the question. ⁓ I think one pattern I've seen and there can be many, right? ⁓ there can be some things that can carry over, but I'd say one consistent pattern I've seen has been this idea is like, I'm not good enough. the there's, there's this almost hidden lie that many leaders will sit into is like, almost snuck into the job or they like somehow fell into it. and that in, in insider design, ⁓ the insider challenge of like,

Am I really good enough to do this? Like limiting belief, self doubt that can creep into truly what they can see they're capable of. I've seen that in several different spaces.

Sean Patton (02:04)
That's so, you know, I think that that can be re true for so many of us. know I guilty of that or struggle with that. I don't know if the guilty is very weird, but it's definitely something that comes up sometimes when we get in these new environments. And I know for me, sort of a different lens to choose that has been helpful is just.

If I feel uncomfortable or I feel like I'm maybe not good enough or like I'm, don't know quite what to do. That just means I'm doing new stuff. Like I'm growing. Like this is a good thing. it's kind of my reframe. How, when you, when you work with a leader who's who has that inner pattern, that, that limiting belief, that thought going on that I'm not enough and I kind of don't deserve it. What, is your approach to working with that leader to help change that mindset around?

Danny Bowers (02:47)
Yeah, I mean, we've got this fun term called imposter syndrome. That's often how people label that of I'm not good enough or like I'm doing something I've never done before. there's almost like I'll hear business owners, coaches, individuals just go like, like, what am I really doing here? Or there's even be a language around like, I don't know how to do this. And we're like, yes, you don't know this is a brand new role for you. This is a brand new opportunity. It's a brand new team. It's a brand new school. It's a brand new wherever the brand new is.

And that imposter syndrome often is this little voice that we can allow ourselves to have a like, crap, I gotta fake this thing. And hopefully they know find out. And one of my invitations is like, hey, what if that voice, what it was like a little alarm that says, fantastic, you're up to something brand new you've never done yet. And you get to reinvent. And so often what I've seen is leaders try to take what always got them to where they're at.

and they want to bank on that, so the exact same sauce, exact same formula, the exact same routine that's going to get them to a brand new level. kind of sitting in that, like with that imposter syndrome, there's also just a fun playfulness of like, Hey, like, what if you just embrace the fact that, you've never done this and you literally throw a heart yet at the end, like I've never done this yet. Like there's even times like I'll have it, I'll have someone like bang their hand on the desk when they say it just like,

Hey, what if this is a new rally cry for yourself? So there's some playfulness there that you definitely can lean into.

Sean Patton (04:12)
Hmm. When, I love that part of that mindset shift is leaning into playfulness. that's something even newer for me in the past year going into this year, every year I have like, know, you can do different versions of this, but I have like two words, just works for me. I've got two words that I'm like, all right, this is this year. I'm going to like remind myself of this is my chosen like way of being that I want to try to like balance off of. And, ⁓

And so last year it was a patience and consistency. ⁓ and then this year it's bold and playful. And so it's just because I found myself, you know, maybe having some success or different things happening. And then all of a sudden I started taking, I started taking things so seriously. I started, I felt myself sort of tightening up, with those different opportunities as they, as they come up.

Danny Bowers (04:40)
Okay.

bowl to play.

Sean Patton (04:59)
And in my estimation, taking things too seriously. And I noticed that an energy drain that came from that sort of like way of being of like everything's so serious and what am going to make a mistake? And, and I'm like, I'm not enjoying this as much. So, you know, we're doing important work, but how do you, how do you, you know, wrestle with this? Let's, let's be playful about this. I love that you brought that in. I know what, no, I knew we're doing important work. It's important, but it can also be playful.

Danny Bowers (05:23)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and I think, I think there's a real fun clarification that, ⁓ like playfulness is not a, take things less serious. Playfulness, ⁓ is not a, Hey, nothing's at stake here. Excuse me. I mean, there are, mean, in the, in the NCAA world, you, you keep your contract based off results. And if you don't win, someone else will want your job.

in business. Like if you are not making ROI, if you're not hitting your metrics, like there are people's lives at stake because businesses cannot thrive without making the money they need to do. And whether it's profiting, shareholding, or it's individual leaders, like, and so playfulness in some occurrences can have a like, you're not as serious. It's like, well, no, like what if the playfulness is you actually play in a game and everybody loves a new level of the game. Everybody loves to win. No, I've never met a leader that goes, I love sucking at things.

they're willing to grow, but they don't love that. Like, I don't know how to do this. Like I love, I love it when I suck. We all want to win. And so some of the playfulness honestly is like, I'll use the term with many of my clients, like, Hey, what's your scorecard? Like what's the scorecard you're actually using to create wins in this quarter, in, in this month, in this week against this opponent, whatever it may look like, we all have our own scorecard. And so you talked earlier, Sean, about like these two words, like bold and playfulness.

⁓ My presumption is the reason things got tight for you is something was at stake. And then when something being at stake, we internally as people, when things are at stake for us, there ⁓ can be anxiety, there can be fear, there can be like a weird level of excitement as well. And often when we can call out, here's what's at stake, we can see what we're leaning into and we can see, we resisting it or are we going to lean into it?

⁓ Like from a human developmental level, Carl Jung is a psychologist. He says, whatever we resist will persist. And so when we notice we're resisting things, it will persist in our lives. It will show up. And what I found is people will often respond to their map of reality. And so when we're playing Playfulness, we're really reinventing the map. Like what's the map you're looking at? What's the scorecard you're looking at to go, how do you want to respond in this moment? And when these things are at stake and

often it's a way to invite people to a different ⁓ occurrence, a different way of seeing the world. Cause when we're all tight and wound and bound up, ⁓ especially with athletes, you'll hear them talk about my hands are tight, my feet are tight. It's like, well, you're not playing loose. You're not leading in a loose perspective. And so what is it that may loosen up? ⁓ And so sometimes that playfulness truly is just the, like, what if we just shift the map of how you're looking at this? What if we shift the scorecard?

So that's part of it.

Sean Patton (08:57)
I think one of the things that just came up for me there and that I've noticed with the work we do in MetaPerformance with Novus Global that's been so powerful for all my clients has been even the realization of playing with this different worldview. that they, I think so many people don't even realize that's an option. You know what mean? Like that's, there's like what I could, because it's like, no, this, what I'm seeing is

Danny Bowers (09:16)
yeah, yeah.

Sean Patton (09:21)
the reality is, is real. And you're like, yes. And there's a lot more, there's a different way to see this, what you're looking at, you know, two people can be in the same situation and have completely different emotional responses, have completely different thoughts have completed and you could decide to switch that. and, and so I guess if someone's hearing that and they're like, what, I'm not even sure. What do you mean? Like I can just decide to see the world differently, or maybe even just like,

that sounds like, I don't know, like psychological woo-ness or like, what are you, you know, what are you even talking about? But like, so if we got real practical with that, I'd love to hear, especially with your work with maybe athletes, if we start there, like what is maybe an example of current worldview and then deciding to sort of shift that lens.

Danny Bowers (09:51)
Perfect.

Yeah. so, ⁓ one of my clients, ⁓ and I love the question cause practicality is where we want to live. Like, a lot of theories out there, but let's get real nuts and bolts. So, it was really fascinating. Like one of my clients, ⁓ up and coming, NCAA coach, in, in his world. And he kept getting this, the secondary role, the assistant role, and he's aiming for the head coach role and he has, doesn't have it yet. And.

one of the nuances was like, yeah, he noticed like that person got that role at that school because they knew that person and he doesn't know that person. And so there's always a politics game of who you know and referrals and all that and like welcome to life and relationships and networking. But it was noticing like everyone was getting ahead because of who they knew. And it's like, okay, well, do you wanna test that theory? And literally just asked him, like, hey, do wanna test that theory? Who do you know in your world that

you've been around the sport, you've been around the industry, who do you know that you have not asked a recommendation for? And just by sitting in that, he was like, like he literally had this aha moment. It's like, there's these three guys that I know that I could go ask for recommendation from today, but they don't know I'm up to the new level. They don't know I'm up to the next iteration. And on the practicality, he like, he just needed to open his mouth. He just needed to like, Hey dude, like, what if you go ask for him?

So he would did, went and asked for him. And one of them said, no, I'm not going to give you that recommendation. And he was taken back. And so when he got taken back, I was like, well, hey, like, did you ask why? He was like, no, I didn't. I was like, well, why don't you go get feedback? And so would we, mean, our work, we talk about feedback so much. So we got feedback and that individual gave him feedback on two areas of his leadership. says, I wouldn't recommend you for one of these top tier spots. Here's, and when they had the why,

and now gave him data to go play with and now gave him data to go work. his new scorecard was like, if these are the two leadership things that are keeping me from getting a recommendation from this person, who would I need to become and what would I need to do to be able to have that? And the growth wasn't in just doing it. It was also shifting him as a leader. And it was just fascinating to watch because this idea that one, he wasn't asking for people he knew, two, when he did, he got feedback.

And then the feedback became data points that we could work with in the coaching space for him to go after. And he just got done literally being the number two. he got, he was, down to him and one other person and the other person got the head, the head coaching job, but it was a dream job for him. And instead of being deflated by not getting, he was like, ⁓ I feel so validated in the work and what I've put into, let's get back in another season. Let's get more results on, on the field. And now let me go into the next, when the next cycle opens up.

He can go after it. Categorical shift from a year and a half ago for him to go instead of like, everybody else is winning. I suck. It was like, Hey, let's find and mine for those areas that was actually going to serve him and his vision of where he's going.

Sean Patton (12:59)
love that so practical. And you know what I noticed there was the shift from like external reasons. Like the reason I'm getting this role is because other people, it's things outside of me are the reason I'm not having the thing I want to let me go figure out what in this equation I can control my identity, the way I'm seeing things work on these certain skills internally. And then you start seeing results from that. And so, yeah, I wonder if that's

Danny Bowers (13:08)
Mm-hmm.

Sean Patton (13:27)
a good indicator that, maybe there's a more helpful lens or worldview to have. If, if you look out and the rationale for maybe not having what you want or not having the results you want, or not in the things you want is outside of you, there's probably more research to be done.

Danny Bowers (13:44)
Yeah,

well, I mean, we play so much with growth and ownership in our values. And so when we think about growth and we think about growth happens internally, and then the greatest fulfillment is in that ability to go after what we want to go after. what I find, like you talk about worldview, like building a different worldview of ownership, I see as one of the key elements of the clients we work with is like, hey, what is the experience I want to create? Because

If every experience I'm having is an experience I'm creating, which is a quote we play with in the ownership conversation, what do you want to go do? And I find often when leaders are in the, I'm not good enough. What am I doing here? That imposter syndrome. There's almost this easy spot to want to hide behind external circumstances, which you called out there to be able to go, well, no, what if we actually step into, what is it you want to go after?

and how do you want to step into ownership of what you want to create? That doesn't mean it's genie in the bottle. It doesn't mean it's going to happen with three wishes here. But it does mean we get to get, as we use the phrase, like get under the bar, like actually put the weight on, like what is it we want to go after here to see what we want to create? And when we start creating it, we can actually literally watch our worldview shift.

That's the fun part I enjoy working with clients and even my own framework of how I've changed doing the work in within me is like, hey, this level of ownership categorically can change how you relate to the job, your circumstances, your personal life, your professional life. For me, that has been a key, key element.

Sean Patton (15:10)
Is there a difference between ownership and responsibility?

Danny Bowers (15:13)
⁓ I love that question. Because it comes so often. Semantically, yeah, I think there is. And I think there's also just a great parallel there. Here's my take on that. I think ownership shifts categorically away from responsibility. Because

the way I view it is like responsibilities, like, I'm responsible for a task. like today's trash at our house. I'm responsible in our house to get the trash out to the curb, to make sure that it's out there. Okay. That's a responsibility. now I can invite my wife to do that. If I'm tied up, I'm sick, going to be out of, out of town, but the ownership takes up another level. So for me, ownership is, I'm so committed to make sure that

the trash and smell inside the house for an extra week because we didn't get it out, that if I'm not able of doing it, I'm going to invite someone else to the conversation. And it's a really simple illustration, but like responsibly is like, did you get the task done? Ownership is, did I get the task done completed to the degree of excellence that actually supports our family? Where I've seen this come up with clients, and this is I love the question is,

Often when people are in that mid-management, like not in the C-suite, they would love to get there one day, but they're like, hey, whatever the boss says, I'll do. Like, great, there's a lot of responsibility you're doing, but how do you want to own the conversation? How do you actually want to own the outcome? And it's really fun to watch people abdicate their ownership. It's like, well, that's not my job. Like that's not me to do. That's what the boss has to tell me. That's what the VP is supposed to tell me. It's like, great. What would thrill the VP?

Like what would thrill the boss? Do you want to have that level of ownership in your role and what you provide for the company or the team that you go another level? And I would say that's a fun worldview. So you asked me the question, Sean, I'd actually love to hear your own take on that. Is there a difference between ownership and responsibility?

Sean Patton (16:54)
Yeah, think there is. and what came up for me when you were just describing that, which was that middle management, which, I like to say we're all middle managers. Like the CEO has a board or shareholders. Like we're all, everybody reports somebody, you know? and in that, yeah, the responsibility would be like, Hey, you're responsible for, you know, this metric or this outcome makes sure this thing happens. Cool. I made this thing happen.

Danny Bowers (17:04)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Sean Patton (17:14)
ownership would look more like also saying, I wonder how this process could be improved. I wonder, I wonder how if I can ⁓ pour into the people doing this and develop them to do move on to bigger, better things or get more output or, know, and, and I think that, you know, if we're getting really tactical, one area where I see high ownership is when I see what I call like leading up.

Danny Bowers (17:21)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (17:38)
When I see, you you mentioned like, would thrill the boss? Like I know it's a business owner myself. Like what thrills me as a leader more than ever. And I've given this advice to so many, you know, young people or emerging leaders. Like when you go, when you go to them and tell your hire your boss, whatever, what, what they want to know before they ask you for it. If you start solving problems before they even know it's a problem, Whoa, you know, and, and, and

Danny Bowers (17:57)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (18:03)
And that feels so great when, when you see that it's like so rare, to see that when you see someone step up and do that, like you're immediately like, you, you, you've tagged that person as like, this is a high potential person. That's a high end C person because they're showing high levels of ownership as opposed to someone who's just like doing the task they were assigned and you know, yes, boss, done boss. Here's my swore card. That would be someone with good responsibility and, but ownership takes it to the next level. you said,

Danny Bowers (18:29)
Yeah, yeah, man, that statement of like solving problems before they exist or even answering the questions before they're asked like that. That's huge. That is huge.

Sean Patton (18:37)
Yeah. And so I think that's the next, the next level. And, know, another thing that's come for me is, I remember I was talking with young officers and I was still in the military. was getting out. I, you know, it was, ⁓ been there for 10 years and, and, and this is good. Like you talk about like the politics or organizational stuff that goes on sometimes too. And, ⁓ I was like, look, every once in a while, if you can like do something that makes your boss look good in front of his boss.

without taking credit, like you're golden. Like you're, good. Like that's, that's if you can do that, everything else is great. And a lot of times that means like your team does something really great or you recognize that, uh, you know, me and this other team did this, you know, in a business sense would always have military one. Cause it's a true and interesting, but like me and some other teams did, some cross training where we, trained each other in different skillsets. We had this really great outcome. We,

up, you know, up level these soldiers and like, you pulled in these like civilian contractors. And it was this really cool thing. They got recognized by like a local government. I could, that could just be a normal report. Like, Hey, we did it. We did the training. did the plan instead of like created a product because I know like my boss's boss, like the Colonel. Like would love to see that too, cause you know, he's going to probably show it to his boss. And so now my company commander gets to take this thing and be like,

look what my teams did. It's ready to go. He didn't have to do it. He didn't ask for it. And then, but it makes him look like a shiny star. Cause he's having his teams work with other teams and local governments. And he got to show it to his boss. And I was like, Hey sir, I think you're going to show us somebody. And I just walk off. No, my name's not on it. Right. Like man, like that's to me, that's like, that's a different level of ownership versus responsibility. was like, sir, we did the training next week. We're doing something else.

Danny Bowers (20:15)
Yeah, and thanks for sharing that because as you're sharing, like, it's so funny how often people are insecure about letting other people shine because there's a internal like, well, when am I going to get my atta boys or atta girls? Like, when am I going to get noticed? And what I've found a lot with our work that has shifted worldviews is like, oh, when there's a sense of generosity and there's a sense of like, hey, we as a team are going farther, faster, like we are actually celebrating.

people notice leadership shifts. Like you can't hide when there's reinvention and transformation and letting the boss win or in that illustration, like, hey, letting actually two or three layers win and notice categorical movement and opportunities for resource to be like at that level. It's like, hey, you're gonna get noticed at some point in time. And it's like that middle manager is like, hey, if your team of four crushed it and the VP got credit for it, great.

I guarantee you, your team noticed it. I actually guarantee in the backs of the VP's mind is like, like Tim did a great job. Like I'm going to know that the next time Tim's up for maybe a promotion or a compensation adjustment, we can have that conversation. And I think there's just a spirit of generosity in our work that many leaders who lean into reinvention transformation, they run with and they begin to see like, Hey, we all get to win.

And that's also a fun shift when people let down their guard to go, how do we as a team go farther?

Sean Patton (21:38)
Great call out because you know, on this, on this podcast, talk about leadership at all levels. And we talk about how leadership isn't about position and title. And you don't have to be, you can lead from, from day one and should right. Leading with yourself. And that's a great example of where if leadership is about influence, how an act like that inside of a larger company, this, this sense of going we of, of, of giving, of not, not needing, you know, credit immediately for like,

for you, but make it about the team and about this bigger win. Uh, you mentioned everyone sees that and like this spirit of generosity. It's like that can shift the culture of the entire division, even if you're a junior manager, like if you start repeatedly do that. And so when I was just like, Oh, I want to work with you. I want to do that all of sudden. Like you don't have to be the VP to change the culture of that division. You can do that from wherever you're at. And that is leadership to me.

Danny Bowers (22:33)
Yeah, no, that's a call out. Great call out on that.

Sean Patton (22:35)
You know, another thing that, ⁓ I'm interested in is that, is on, is on pressure. So when, ⁓ you know, you've mentioned before and your content, I take in, you know, what you, things you put out like that high performers default to pressure as a primary driver. And I have this, I found myself through this and I've actually having a conversation with, with a friend about this, how it's like.

Danny Bowers (22:40)
Hmm.

Sean Patton (22:57)
I almost have this belief or have had this belief that I sort of like fighting with or wrestling with, which is like, I need to be suffering in order to be like, be at my best. You know, I need to be under this pressure. need to have my back against the wall. Um, and, be in that place in order for me to really step up. And it's been an interesting journey for me to try to explore. Like, is that true? How could that not be true? Was there a different way of being around that? But like, why do you so

And you can disagree, but like, have you found, you know, high performers that, sort of over, over index on this idea that, ⁓ I need pressure to be at my best.

Danny Bowers (23:36)
The direct answer is yes. Have we found high performers that have over indexed? I'm a recovering high performer that over indexed. So like myself is in this conversation. Yeah. And Sean, think the framework around pressure is nuanced. And so I want to, I want to nuance it here with you. we got to look at like, well, what is the pressure from? you lean into certain environments like,

Sean Patton (23:37)
Okay.

Danny Bowers (23:55)
Sean, you were in pressure centric environments, especially in special forces. Like it truly was life or death. Um, that is very, that is similar to like we find surgeons, especially in emergency department, trauma based centers. They are making pressure decisions in milliseconds of time for life or death. And then you have pressure environments, like athletes who, Hey, we win. We're in the playoffs. Like so many hockey teams right now as we're recording this are in that, like we got four games left in the calendar. How do we get into the playoffs?

You have the NFL draft come up. There's a pressurized environment for young athletes to perform to get drafted. Then you have the pressure of parenting. If I don't get the kid down for a nap, our Saturday is ruined. Like there's pressure all around us. And so like one of my favorite things as a coach is to watch the pressure that's alluded to and get really curious about it. And so we like, we have a tool called Vision Reality Gap. So you set a really clear vision.

that's compelling, that invites almost the pain of transformation. Is that vision so compelling that it ignites a passion that's worth the pain or discomfort of transformation? Once that's clear, we get really then clear on current reality. Where is current reality and what's in between is a gap. In our work, we have the phrase called love the gap. What I'm often looking for is when clients are talking about their pressure, it's like, what's the gap?

because pressure can be a fuel that actually moves you forward. And it also can be a fuel that disempowers you. And so I wanted to take a little bit to nuance it to get back to your questions. Like, Hey, have I seen high performers like over index? Absolutely. And I get really curious about like, what's the pressure from? Is it this insert internal story of inadequacy? Or if I don't make the sale, the boss is going to fire me. Is it a, like you're trying to live up to something that is, is true in your world.

but you might've over-indexed the meaning of it. And so like, there's a lot of curiosity around that. And when we're talking about pressure for me, like I made a career off if I don't do it today, and if I don't make it happen today, then it'll never happen. And there is this weight that I lived with, that I led with, that I worked on that if it's not done now, then all is lost. And I was a young leader,

and a team of three underneath me working non-profits. So you're always based on funding. And then once the funding's released, like you got to maximize it. You got to tell great stories to get more funding. And it's just this rat race that can be there for non-profit settings. And what I noticed was I was leading with such a, if we don't do everything and do everything to tell the great stories, then we'll not get more funding. And I was just burning out the team.

And I had another young leader who actually took another role at another nonprofit and said, Hey, the reason I'm leading leaving is because of your leadership. I cannot work under the pressure you put us under. And I don't know how many people can sustain it. And I was like, I thought we were good, dude. Like I thought, I thought like, I thought we're doing this thing forever. And it really came down to this reality of like, ⁓ I was running on a fuel.

that was creating this false awareness that, I got to do everything and I got it. We got to get everything done and we got to maximize this funding and we got, we got to capture these great testimonials so we can get more funding. And it became this like do everything. And it was a mile wide and an inch deep on impact. And, uh, that was a reinvention for me in our own work. Uh, you know, I, I, I got connected to our firm in this work, uh, 2023. So I'm three years into a reinvention.

And one of the most clear things for me has been a reduction of this false mindset of like everything matters. It's like, no, no, no. Like part of meta-performance is like getting really clear on the vision because when we're clear on the vision, that's what we anchor into. And that's our yes, which means you start saying no to a lot of the things. So when we get really clear on vision, we're even inviting leaders to go, Hey, this pressure you're feeling.

Is it actually connected to your vision or is it connected to something that happened five, six months, weeks, games years ago that you're still holding onto? You're trying to bring into the future. And it's like, how do you want to show up now? And so pressure can be this fantastic fuel. It can also be this really disempowering moment. And we get really, I love getting really clear curious with my clients is like, what type of pressure are we talking about? You want to inflate a tire's bike pressure to what it's called for.

It's what optimizes the tire. You overfill it, it's gonna pop. You underfill it, it's gonna be a really painful ride. So pressure is solid and yet it's finding that balance. And this is where I often call it, like it's a tension to manage, not a problem to solve. So what's the tension of pressure to manage versus trying to solve it? That was pretty long-winded. So I wanna check in with you, like for you and your audience. Let me take a breath.

Sean Patton (28:29)
No. it's a great description of that. And, and looking at the, the balance of like, what is the right amount of pressure? And then I also liked the call out of like adding clarity of, this in line with my vision or not?

and yeah, I, I definitely related to, for me what happens sometimes, and I'm interested in your take on this is I'll, I'll create a vision.

or a goal or future, like a future state. And I'm like, okay. And then all of a sudden I get, I start putting pressure on myself in a way that's like, because I can see it clearly in my head, I want it like it needs to happen now. And if I'm not doing it now, I'm actually falling behind, like, I started turning this negative pressure cycle of like this ideal I set out. and I think it was in

a book I read recently, it's actually one of our lists, I think for, for notice global, the courage to be disliked. And so this book called the courage to be disliked. And what it talked about in that was that we have, a lot of us will set out this ideal self, right? Like my, my perfect self, I'm the, I'm a perfect husband, the perfect father, perfect wife, you know, whatever. And I'm the best coach in the world.

Danny Bowers (30:26)
Hmm.

Sean Patton (30:40)
And I'm a seven figure speaker and I, and I'm a, podcast is the number one. And like, that's the, that's like in my head, I like create that, that version. And then we're creating like an impossible, perfect ideal self. And, and, and then we don't measure up it's because we're lacking, we're, failing. And of course, even if we hit that, we'll just create a new ideal self. You know? So it's like, it's always just, so we're in a constant state of like putting ourselves down because we're creating this.

perfect self, ideal state in the future. And to me, that's an example of this pressure that's over inflated for me that like created a negative overall end state.

Danny Bowers (31:19)
Yeah. And my chuckle, when the minute I heard you say it, was like, yeah, I totally resonate with that. ⁓ yeah. And just notice like the level of deceit that either one of us could step into there. It's like, Hey, I create this future state, this vision. Cool. I do it. I've got it now. It's like, well, what world do you get what you want right when you want it? And like, especially like some of the visions that we hear our clients and even, mean, I, I like even everything you rattled off. like, that sounds thrilling. I want to see Sean hit that vision.

Sean Patton (31:23)
Yeah.

Danny Bowers (31:46)
And yeah, is that gonna happen overnight? Like is podcast gonna go number one overnight? Maybe, like it could with one right click, but, and then again, you have.

Sean Patton (31:54)
with

the infamous Danny Bowers interview. ⁓

Danny Bowers (31:57)
Maybe. I'll take credit for that one. But no,

like we do, we create these like deceitful thoughts in our head and like, it's got to happen now. And so I'm going to go back to what I articulated, like the vision gap reality. And this is where we invite clients and we invite ourselves to love the gap. Hey, so if the vision, the future state is really what you want to go after, current reality is here, then what's the first metric of gap you want by when?

Like great, if you want your business to be like at 10 X revenue, well by when? Is it in a quarter? Cool. Is that really fantasy or is there a strategy we could play with to get there? You know, and for some businesses, yeah, they could totally 10 X in a quarter and others like, no, it's probably a three year plan. Well, what, what would it take to do a two year plan? Like would that actually thrill you? And so when we play with the gaps and this is actually really fun personally is

⁓ Like my sons are both ⁓ out of college. They're in young adult world. So like my relationship time with them is different. So my vision is when I'm around my sons is I have I have limited quantity. So I want a vision of quality. Well, what would quality look like? And no joke, my youngest was visiting this past weekend. So I listed three things before he even got to the front door. It's like in my head is like I want to go on a walk with him. I want to share a meal with him and I want to check in with him on a book he's reading. Those are the three things I want.

for me to go, want quality time with my son in the less than 24 hours he's going to be here. So those three little gaps were clear things by when I wanted. Now it's one of those little things that when people think about vision, they can play extraordinarily. It's like, you can have a vision for the next 24 hours of your life. And that feeling that it's got to be done now. It's like, well what's the first gap you want to close? What's the first step of strategy you want to play with? and even to go back to the pressure part is what I think about is

I want it all now. There's difference between a want and a vision. And so sometimes in the vision, there is, is this really igniting a passion in me that it's going to invite me to reinvent? Who do I get to become to see that vision go versus just something I want? Often in our wants, we can stay the same person. We can be right where we're at, but with vision, there's a compelling shift of reinvention.

And our question with clients is, well, who would you need to become? Who would you get to become to go after that vision? And that's, when we play reinvention and transformation, for me, that's one of the most fun spots to see.

Sean Patton (34:15)
So as we chase, you know, vision and maybe I think this goes into maybe you're articulating there about like wants and vision, but as we chase that growth and how do we avoid

How do we find the balance between what's sustainable and not sustainable? Cause sometimes we hear like, you know, this big vision over here, this, or this we're going to make sure you have transformation. Like we love that word. I've got this great transformation of self, and then it can lead to, Lean into that, like constant growth, constant going that like actually leads to

uh, to a sense of burnout or a sense of like, you know, giving up. like, what is the balance here? When we were, we want to push, we want to drive, we want to switch to meta performance versus a high performance mindset. Um, but how do we include envision a balanced, a balanced, more holistic life as opposed to just achieve, achieve, achieve.

Danny Bowers (35:10)
Yeah, no, I love that question because, like high performers love to drive and they love to go. And so, ⁓ even the shift of like, ⁓ what would it look like? ⁓ and I don't know if this is the, I don't believe this is the total answer, but like one of the things I'm aware of for myself is like, where are people slowing down? ⁓ and like, and when I mean by slowing down, often it's mentally before it's physically. And, when.

I'll say for myself like I know for me when I've got and I've got some bold visions that my wife and are going after right now and being willing to go all of this if I'm committed to it like I get to see you I becoming it and What does it look like for a vision even for sustainable livelihood? What does it look like for vision of rest? What does it look like for even how I show up relationally because there's a difference between charging after

vision and wants and ideas and desires and it only being a segment of light versus it hitting all of your life. I, I used to be Sean, I used to be the person that stayed up to 12, one o'clock, get up at five. Like I'd pride myself. I can go, I do this off four hours of sleep just to get all the stuff done. And I realized like, noticing how short and temperamental I was about two o'clock the next day. having young kids that wasn't great.

And I didn't have language around vision the way that I do now. But one of the things that I've come to realization in the season of life is like, self-care actually matters. Rest matters. Um, being willing to like, we, we use the word, um, uh, integrity from a place of like workability and structural ability in the firm. like, is the integrity of our word. One of the things for me is like, what, what am I, what's my integrity and what's my commitments to how I want to show up for my marriage.

for my parenting in the season, for relationships, for myself. Right now, I'm committed to a 545 walk with the dogs every single morning, which means I'm out of bed at 541 and ready to roll. I'm committed to losing a set amount of weight right now. So it means every five out of seven days, I've got a workout routine in the evenings. that whole what charge, slowing down comes up for me. And those are just some personal ways that I'm choosing to slow down.

And I find it, what I find with myself and even speaking to a handful of clients is slowing down to get really clear on what's, what am I strategically going after right now, gets really sober on what's really worth going after. And I don't use that term lightly because like sobriety brings awareness in other areas of life that haven't been there before.

Sean Patton (37:36)
Uh, and I love the call out of sort of holistic vision and not getting hyper focused in one area because I think it would be easy to, you know, maybe get super excited and create this grant, you know, maybe legitimate, like professional vision and sort of unknowingly. You like, can I do this? Is it, you know, is it possible? Yeah. It requires transformation, but you're not taking into account, um,

what it's stepping on, you know, like what you're, what you're, what you're giving out. Is that really the future that you want? And so if we're going to look at like, what is the vision, the future that you really want, that was really thrilling, that you're really passionate about. And if you make the mistake of just doing this work in like a professional sense, then you're like, well, in order to accomplish that actually

Danny Bowers (38:07)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (38:25)
I'm not taking care of myself and my relationships are going to crap and everything else is happening because I didn't actually account for that. When I, when I, when I looked at future vision, I know, ⁓ when I've done some, some work, some workshops, things like that in the past around this, I've sort of broken it out for people in terms of like, Hey, let's look at, professional relational and personal, just to make sure we get sort of a, a, w you know, a wide swath there.

Danny Bowers (38:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (38:51)
Do you have an approach or like a check when you're working with clients to make sure that you're creating a holistic vision for the future?

Danny Bowers (38:58)
Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, I actually I do. And I brought it from someone in the firm. So one of our executive partners, John Roberts, actually one of very first conversations with them is like, hey, as coaches, like, how are you building their world with them? Like, how are you coaching their world? And so that whole I heard you say professional, relational and personal with those three. Yeah. So often, like that's a framework I'll ask with the clients like, hey, if you're going after this vision and it is often work or professional.

how is this gonna impact your world? How is this gonna impact your household? How is it gonna impact your relationships, your friendships? And for high performers, they'll have like, yeah, that part of my life. The other parts of my life will kind of have an aha moment. And then there's also really fun when some leaders are like, hey, I actually love where work's at. I actually wanna create a vision for my personal life because I think if that gets on track, my work life is gonna like magnify and it's impact.

And so the holistic piece absolutely is like, what's the world part? And so it's often the questions like, Hey, how's this going to impact your world? The other fun question is like, I asked them to list the five most important people in their life. So they'll list them and, can be spouses, parents, siblings, kids, close relatives, best friends, you name it and go, what do you want them to say about this transformation over the next six to 12 months? And it's really fun for them to sit in that. And one of my invitations were like,

Will you go ask them that question? Like, so like what would, what would those five people want for you? Like what would they tell me about your life right now that they want for you to see reinvention or change or thrill? And it's really fun because when we play meta performance, what are we capable of? It is not an I conversation. It's a we conversation. So those are two things that I'll often get back with clients. Like how is this going to impact your world? And then give me the, give me the five people closest to you. What will they say about this?

over the next six to 12 months.

Sean Patton (40:45)
Well, am, I'll send you your consulting fee because I'm definitely going to steal both of those, with my clients. Okay. Yeah. I, I actually just, got a text from John earlier today. I'm on his ICS team, internally. So I'm excited for that. Yeah. ⁓ man, Danny, this has been fantastic as always. love our conversations and I think you did bring max value today. So, ⁓ yeah, thanks for coming on to me. It's been super fun.

Danny Bowers (40:49)
Well, just give John Robinson a nod for one, because I stole it from him.

fine. Yeah.

Sean, thanks for invite. And for the listeners, it's just a pleasure to take up some space in your world today.

Sean Patton (41:17)
Absolutely. And we will put ⁓ links for you to get in contact with Danny in the show notes. So just check those, click those. I'm sure ⁓ he'd love to hear from you if you're interested in talking more about coaching.