127: From Amazon to Agentic AI: Strategies From 26-Year CMO Marcy Comer

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In This Episode:

Most leaders are drowning in priorities, deploying AI without a strategy, and managing teams across generational gaps they were never trained for. Marcy Comer has lived all of it — and she's still in the trenches. 

Marcy is the Chief Marketing Officer at EagleView, with over 26 years of marketing leadership across Amazon, high-growth startups, and Fortune 500 organizations. She's the kind of executive who will tell you exactly what she expects — because she learned the hard way that ambiguity kills performance. 

In this episode, Sean and Marcy get into the real stuff: how to lead up without overstepping, how to push back on an impossible ask and actually get more resources, and why most AI deployments are failing not because of the technology — but because of the humans around it. 

What you'll learn: 

• The "top three" framework Marcy uses with her own CEO to eliminate miscommunication and build trust fast
• How to say yes to a new ask while negotiating what comes off your plate — without damaging the relationship
• What to do when your team is overwhelmed and paralyzed (hint: it starts with a list)
• Why deploying AI without a human in the loop is quietly destroying customer trust — and the metric most leaders aren't tracking
• How to bridge the generational divide on your team when your default is to shut down and push through

Chapters:

 00:00 — Intro & Meet Marcy Comer
 01:03 — Inside EagleView's Agentic AI Launch
 02:50 — Leading Across Startups, Amazon & Fortune 500
 04:03 — Building a Culture That Embraces Change
 06:16 — The Top 3 Priorities Framework
 09:30 — How to Lead Up (Without Overstepping)
 11:44 — Pushing Back on an Impossible Ask
 13:41 — Managing Team Capacity & Workload
 15:22 — The Hardest Leadership Transitions
 19:00 — Leading Across Generations
 24:00 — Turning Complex Org Challenges Into Clear Strategy
 27:41 — What to Do When Your Team Is Overwhelmed
 30:01 — Finding & Protecting Your Zone of Genius
 31:39 — When to Pivot vs. Stay the Course
 33:09 — AI Integration & the Human Element
 36:41 — Why Most AI Deployments Fail
 40:21 — Advice for the Next Generation of Leaders 

Quotable: "If I look you in the eye and tell you exactly what I expect, and you don't do it — then I know what we're working with." — Marcy Comer
 
Connect with Marcy and learn more about EagleView at eagleview.com or https://www.linkedin.com/in/topcmo 

If this episode hit home, share it with a leader on your team who needs it.

No Limit Leadership is the go-to podcast for growth-minded executives, middle managers, and team leaders who want more than surface-level leadership advice. Hosted by executive coach and former Special Forces commander Sean Patton, this show dives deep into modern leadership, self-leadership, and the real-world strategies that build high-performing teams. Whether you're focused on leadership development, building a coaching culture, improving leadership communication, or strengthening team accountability, each episode equips you with actionable insights to unlock leadership potential across your organization. From designing onboarding systems that retain talent to asking better questions that drive clarity and impact, No Limit Leadership helps you lead yourself first so you can lead others better. If you're ready to create a culture of ownership, resilience, and results, this leadership podcast is for you.

Transcript

Sean (00:00)
If your team is overwhelmed, your priorities are unclear, and AI is being thrown at every problem, this episode is your answer. Today I'm joined by Marcy Comer, CMO at Eagleview, with 26 years leading marketing in Amazon, Fortune 500s, and high-growth startups. She's still in the trenches. And she's here to give you a no-fluff playbook on managing up, cutting through chaos, and deploying AI without blowing up your operations. Marcy doesn't just theorize, she builds, scraps, pivots, and delivers. You're going to want to take notes on this one.

Sean Patton (00:44)
Welcome to the No Limit Leadership podcast. am your host, Sean Patton. And today I'm very excited to be joined by Marcy Cormer. She is the chief marketing officer at Eagle View, where she leads marketing strategy and brand growth. She brings over 20 years of experience across companies like Amazon, high growth startup, Dosh, and multiple Fortune 500 organizations. Known for turning complex challenges into clear growth strategies. Marcy is a leader who builds high performing teams and help businesses scale through change. Marcy, thanks for being on today.

Marcy (01:11)
Thank you, Sean. Happy to be here.

Sean Patton (01:13)
Yeah, I'm very excited for this. You've, you've led in, in, so many different areas. You've had success in so many ways. And what I really love is on this podcast, to be honest, and a lot of podcasts, right? It's like, who is ever like on their book tour, it's like a thought leader or like a theorist a lot or something like our coach or something, which maybe the coach and I just, I love having on this podcast, you know, people who are still

quote unquote, in the trenches, right? Like you're operationally running companies right now. And so I can't wait to learn from you.

Marcy (01:43)
Boy howdy am I in the trenches.

Sean Patton (01:45)
Yeah, you're telling me before we recorded that you've got your just came off a major product launch, right?

Marcy (01:48)
Yeah, so I think it was last week. It's been blur. At this point, honestly, I don't even really know what day of the week it is because it's been so crazy. But we just launched our Agentic AI solution, which every company out there is trying to launch right now. So you can imagine the focus and the effort behind it. And it will be the biggest launch of our year. it was a crazy.

crazy experience, but I'm really excited.

Sean Patton (02:13)
That's so interesting. So tell us a bit about Eagle View.

Marcy (02:16)
Yeah, sure. So we are like 25 years old and we started with high resolution aerial imagery that's captured from airplanes. So a lot of people think of us and think that we're satellite and that couldn't be further from the truth. And the important factor here is that it comes from airplanes, which enables us to get one inch or better imagery. And then when you have imagery across 96 % of the United States and Canada,

then you're able to extract insane data from that. So we build, you know, 3D twins because we have captured the imagery from two different angles, both ortho and oblique, create those twins and then extract all levels of data from it. So anyone that's interested in making sure that our properties or their assets are, you know, functional or want to learn more about their assets, then they will use EgoView to understand.

Sean Patton (03:45)
very interesting.

I imagine how do you keep that data updated?

Marcy (03:50)
So we capture, you know, up to two to three times per year, depending on the area and catastrophes that occur. So sometimes we'll fly an area that's been hit by a tornado or a hurricane or a big flood or a wildfire like the palisades, you know, and so that imagery is updated and then all the data attributes are refreshed as a result.

Sean Patton (04:12)
Interesting. Wow. Well, I'm sure we'll get more into that, but I want to, I want to hop right into leadership because the interesting part about your career is it hasn't just been, at either large companies or very established companies like you're at now. You've also been at startups. So you've, you've sort of seen companies at different phases and different styles of leader leadership required. And so,

Marcy (04:23)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (04:33)
we'll start off maybe what are some of the biggest differences that you see between effective leadership at early stage companies versus middle versus more mature.

Marcy (04:41)
You know, so I like to say that I've marketed everything from hot dogs to API's, which is very true. and from all different kinds of companies, B2C, B2B, B2B2C, private equity, publicly traded startups, the list goes on. And the one thing that matters the most is, is having a sense of curiosity and problem solving. so you want to be on the forefront of

actually building and looking at sort of new technologies to find the green field. And those that do that on a consistent, transparent basis are the ones that are successful. It's the ones that are sort of like worried about taking the next step. That's where you get in into deep water.

Sean Patton (05:24)
Hmm. And how does that play out play out as a leader with getting buy-in for, you know, for, for your teams? One of my, one of my favorite phrases is that people don't hate change. hate ambiguity. And so I'm wondering how that comes across for you when it comes to, Hey, we're going to have a culture. sounds like from here for you is that a culture of excitement around change and constant change.

I would imagine, especially at more mature companies, you told me if this is right, my, my guess is that at early stage companies, everyone's sort of expecting that like, yeah, we're going to change. We're going to grow. We're to do new things. Cool. Cool. Cool. And then it's like some sort of like inverse scale. The bigger you get, the more you get employees that are like, here's my job role. I'm going to do this thing. And you know, almost protectionism around like what their role is.

Marcy (06:09)
I've experienced it to be pretty pervasive regardless of company type. And it's just really, I think as a personality type, know, people will get into startups not understanding the level of agility that's required. And you got to like sort of take a bit of fresh air from you like, go on, let's go, you know, not, not really, I'm not doing that, but, no, certain people,

Sean Patton (06:30)
I'm getting insight into what your one on ones are like right now, Marcy.

Marcy (06:34)
think love that approach. Other people do not so much. But really, especially in the world of marketing, you have to be wanting and interested in changing at all times. For marketing, I started my career in 2000. I graduated from college in 2000. And what I did back then versus what I do now is they're two different careers, it feels like.

And so I look for sort of that interest and curiosity when I hire. And for people that I inherit that don't inherently have that skill set, I just make it part of their goals, you know? And it's mandatory, and if you're not doing that, it becomes really obvious pretty quickly. And you know, it's just like, this isn't the right environment for you. go find, if you don't want change, I...

I suggest that you go work like sort of a steady job. Maybe go work at a hospital or something where things don't change dramatically in terms of your job scope. But if you're in technology, get ready for it because it's changing every week, you know?

Sean Patton (07:37)
Yeah. So what does that look like in practice in terms of, I'm really interested here on like you talk about setting as a goal. Okay. So our goal is going to be, you know, change. And one thing that I have seen with, you know, clients and companies I'm involved with and with my wife's company, when I see her work, cause she's in tech as well is it's like, sort of

know, here's the things we need you to continue to do all this stuff. And by the way, like here's AI or here's this other change. like, make sure you go figure that stuff out too. And it's just like all thrown together, but it's not like, wait a minute. had 40 hours doing this job. Now you want me to go figure out this other thing. Like where is the leadership? What have you seen work in terms of like giving space and time and clear direction around like what embracing new change and evolution looks like.

Marcy (08:20)
Well, at the end of the day, if you nail the top three things that your boss really cares about, you're going to be a A-OK. And in order to do that successfully, I mean, the company owes it to the employees to be really clear about what their priorities are. We do a great, really great job at ECOVUE of this, and more so than I've seen at other companies, but also in your sort of one-on-ones with your manager, I do this with my boss, who's a CEO.

I'll be like, these are the three things that I'm focused on. Let me know if there's something else that you want me to like do instead, but this is what I'm gonna nail for you in the next two to three weeks. Good? All right, I'm gonna go do it. And then I go do it, right? And so my boss, your manager gets used to that rhythm and that trust that you're gonna communicate what's important, what you're working on.

It's up to them to validate that and you're gonna consistently deliver on those two to three things. I mean, you're not a robot yet. So you can only deliver what you can deliver and theoretically you're delivering those two to three things because it's not a big number and at a high level and everyone knows that's what you're gonna do and that seems to always work out. And honestly, there's been times where my boss will call me up and be like, okay, now I need you to do this and I'll be like, okay.

So I'm gonna do this and this and this, right? Right, all right, we're moving on. Or I tell them, you know, like, I really think that we should move this project to the back burner so I can focus on these other two projects, do you agree? And if they say no, the other one's important, that's when you put your ask in. So that recently happened to me, right? So I had a request from the very, very top to get a product launch over the line in a very short,

period of time. And we know the old adage, like good, fast or cheap. And truly, you could only pick two in this timeframe that I was given, right? And so I think that they're wanting to pick good, so that leaves cheap. And so I asked on the spot, like, if in order, I gotta deliver this in this period of time, it's gonna require incremental investment of X. And my boss was like,

Good, go do it. And so I got approval, was able to deliver that. But it's all about sort of transparency, constant communication, and then trust that you're gonna deliver what you say you deliver. If you say, I'm gonna go do these two to three things and then you don't do them, then like, what's the point in even communicating? You are, especially in this day and age where there's lots of talent out there, we're looking for people that can consistently deliver.

Sean Patton (10:51)
that so many notes from this I'm going to get into. I heard a few things there. I want to call out one was this concept of leading up, like don't wait for them to tell you what's important and go say, based on what I'm seeing out here in the company, I think these are my three priorities. Yes or no. Right. Like not waiting to be told what to do. And I was actually recently having a discussion, you know, as we continue with as AI and other things,

Marcy (11:00)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No.

Sean Patton (11:16)
in technology and the market changes. My opinion and feel free to disagree or revise is that if you are the type of person who expects to show up to a company and be told what your role is and what success looks like, and here's your steps one through 10, and you're just going to execute, you will not have a job in five years.

Marcy (11:32)
Yeah, mean, I think that's sort of always been true. And I learned this by screwing up, OK? Like, I have not always known this. I've had jobs where I'm sitting there and I'm like, I'm not really sure what I should do next. And then I kind of screw around doing random things. And then it feels like my boss isn't happy, but we're not communicating about that in a transparent way. And then it just always goes south.

I've learned and maybe it's from, maybe from its experience of and getting confidence and the work that I do. But if I can just say, this is what I'm working on, just tell me right now if it's not right. So that I don't spend another cycle disappointing you, know, that seems to work out a lot better. And also it puts them on the hook for what work that you're doing. Now they have expressed buy-in.

Sean Patton (12:10)
Yeah.

Marcy (12:21)
And so they are also culpable, responsible, accountable, get the credit for the work that you are doing. And that seems to help a lot.

Sean Patton (12:29)
I think it's so critical because you know, how many times do, uh, people sort of like, have this meeting about what's important and what's going on there. Okay. Well, let's go do stuff. Like I'm going to, here's next steps, but there's next steps, but there's not like, all right. Sort of a wrap up around, commitments, right? Well, it's a, it's a language I would use in my coaching firm and with my clients, like, Hey, we just talked about a lot of stuff. Okay. What are you committing to after this? You know, say I'm committed to like, what I'm hearing you say is that these are the top three priorities and they're going to be done by this date.

Marcy (12:43)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (12:53)
Like we're tying in a bow and adding clarity at end of the conversation and that power of, of, of leading up what I'm hearing is like, that is the critical step that maybe we're, missing running onto the next thing instead. Yeah.

Marcy (13:05)
Yeah, mean, have

you ever, this has happened to me. So have you ever had to like follow up with an employee like three times about something? That sucks, right? And you automatically know that they're not long for the company after when you get to that point. And so I feel like sort of that constant communication, that in writing, these are the things I'm gonna do in your weekly update. And like, if I'm missing anything, let me know.

Sean Patton (13:13)
Okay, totally. Yeah.

Marcy (13:30)
you'll catch those sort of misses, because sometimes you do forget. Like there are like a million things that they've asked you to do and you will forget something because you're working on those top three things. And that's the opportunity to sort of catch those before they get bad.

Sean Patton (13:43)
Yeah. And, and, and on the flip side of that, like how great does it feel as a leader when someone comes to the like, right? Like, Hey Marcy, Hey Sean, here's just, just understanding, like I'm working on these things here. What's going on? And like, you didn't ask for it. By the way, I solved this problem. didn't even know existed. You're like, Like when that happens, it's like, my God. Like, I feel like I get lighter. Like I started like floating around the room when that happens.

Marcy (14:00)
Yeah.

Well, for me,

I like to be managed sort of like autonomously, like trust that I'm doing this stuff, just leave me alone and let me go do it. I don't like, you know, constant check-in really. And when I, and what I found is for those employees that do that for me, I leave them alone because that's how I trust that they're doing the work, you know, like you seem to have the ball. So go just keep, keep playing. And for the ones that aren't doing that, I'm like digging in and kind of annoying them.

Sean Patton (14:22)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Marcy (14:31)
So it's like you get to choose the game that you play I prefer for my boss to leave me alone But I mean if you like it feel free

Sean Patton (14:31)
Yeah.

Yeah. If you need to, if you want your boss nagging you, I don't know your boss likes nagging you though.

and so that, that's a critical component of what you, had said, earlier. And then the other part that, I want to call it, it's like the recognition sort of top down of, of like work and load management. And, I've actually worked with leaders that struggle with this. I've challenged them that to.

Marcy (14:55)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (15:02)
not just assume that people know that, these things are important and these things aren't, but actually like when you give them new tasks or ask them new things, also tell them what you're taking off. Like, Hey, we're going to do this. And by the way, we're not doing these things. I'm taking these away from you and just like publicly and proactively acknowledging the fact that you're, you're recognizing there's, there's a, there's a trade off of like, what's important. And, I wonder if you've seen that done well or seeing implications of that or how you do that.

Marcy (15:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, at some point the mental manager has to has to push back and you can push back. We talked about this already. Like you can push back in a variety of ways. You don't have to say no. You can say I can, but it's going, I need this also, you know, but you, you owe it to your directs and you know, your organization to understand their capacity. you know, I mean by hours, but also mentally, and, and.

and then ask for what you need in order to deliver. I have not seen very frequently a high level executive hear someone say like, need X or Y to get it done. And them saying, no, just do it with what you got. But I've never really seen that. I've seen them say more often, optimize what you have to get the desired result.

And that makes a lot more sense, right? That means that I can shift dollars away from something or redirect headcount to something and or delay timelines. But they've never I never well, I have seen it, but very rarely have I seen just a flat out do it with what you got. This is not possible most of the times and I as a manager, I'm not saying this to be like difficult generally like it's truly an obstacle to achieving your desired goal. So, you know, I want to be.

transparent about that.

Sean Patton (16:43)
Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. Man. you mentioned there are sort of, know, you've never seen this in senior management. You've also, as you've moved up in organization to these, these different levels, there's obviously transition. mentioned middle management and your contributor, all that stuff. like, as you had these different transitions, either by sort of levels of responsibility or by market or size of company, what have been like the hardest transitions for you through your career?

Marcy (17:05)
Mm-hmm.

The hardest transitions? I think managing people is the hardest part because you're not in their brain. so for me, sometimes there's doubt about what's really happening. And I understand completely where I am personally, like what I'm going to do, what kind of level of

effort I'm gonna put into it, why I'm doing that. But other people have their own stuff going on. And I found sort of like, as I started moving into managing people and the relationships started changing, you know, I think I found that to be kind of difficult. And it still is pretty difficult. Because you can't demand something out of someone. I mean, it's just, they're human. Like they're gonna do what they're gonna do at the end of the day. And so I find that kind of hard. I think,

But sort of in the work world of different types of work and different types of environment, the hardest place to be is at a startup because expectation is an exchange for the equity that you're getting, that you act like an owner, which means you work all the time, all the time. the expectation, when I worked at my first startup, in my interview with the CEO, the founder,

I asked them, because I was coming from Amazon, so this is why I had this question. When you call me and I don't answer, how long do I have to call you back? What's the expectation? And the response was five minutes. And that wasn't like, I wasn't surprised by the answer because that's what Jeff Bezos expects you to respond. But I knew what I was getting into and I got calls 10.30 PM, Thanksgiving Day, know, every weekend.

like nights all the time and and and I couldn't really complain because I knew what I had signed up for in the interview but it's it's challenging you know and for someone that I've always been sort of in technology and marketing and sort of for for running plant brands but when you're sort of when you switch from sort of an environment like that

and your whole life sort of becomes this startup with an unknown sort of reward happening because you never know how much you're actually gonna get if you're successful in the unlikely event that you're successful. It's really hard. So you have to know what you sign up for.

Sean Patton (19:15)
And how did those transitions shape your leadership identity?

Marcy (19:20)
I think mostly it just made me extremely transparent about what's expected because I feel like operating an ambiguity is too hard. And if I look you in the eye and I tell you exactly what I'm expecting and you don't do it, then there's a level of understanding there, right? You have the opportunity to tell me that you can't do it.

But if you say okay and then don't do it, then I know what we're working with. And likewise, as an employee to my manager, I do the same thing. It's just I feel like you're just way better off no matter how painful the answer might be to be extremely transparent and ask the question, get the response, say the response as the manager truly how it is, and then you can move on from there. And like an example of that is if I expect you to answer my

phone call in five minutes, or I expect you to be working on weekends, then I wanna know that. I want you to know that, and you tell me you can't do it, and then we can move on. Or I can put you in some other role where I don't need you working weekends.

Sean Patton (20:17)
Have you noticed any change in that type of expectation in terms of responsiveness or commitment or working hours in the last five or 10 years versus early in your career?

Marcy (20:28)
for me or generationally.

Sean Patton (20:30)
generationally. Yeah.

Marcy (20:31)
Yeah.

yeah, it's way different. I'm Gen X, so I feel like I came up, my parents are baby boomers, I came up in like a work hard, grinded out culture and just make it happen. And I feel like the newer generation, they're much more apt, also, I never talk about my feelings. And the new generation.

Sean Patton (20:52)
Yeah.

Did you even know what they were?

Marcy (20:55)
No, I have to, I'm

currently working on understanding my feelings. The newer generation, they lead with their feelings, you know, and no compunction about sort of telling you exactly what the business is. And it's shocking for me. And that's been sort of hard to deal with too, to sort of be like, are we speaking the same language? Do you like want...

Sean Patton (20:59)
And yeah, same.

Marcy (21:20)
a job or you want to clock in and out? Like what is it? And maybe my definition of job is wrong now. But that's been really difficult.

Sean Patton (21:27)
Yeah, how are you navigating the shift in culture and are you finding yourself challenging maybe some of your patterns of thought that you grew up with in terms of what's right and wrong required?

Marcy (21:45)
Yeah, the way that I'm navigating it is just leaning right back into communication and telling folks sort of like, asking them, this is new trick this old dog has picked up, but I asked them sort of like, what's going on? Is there something going on that I don't know about? Like, are you okay? Do you need to tell me anything? Like what is happening? And sort of open that door for them to tell me stuff. And then I sort of,

I actually do learn things. they're more willing to tell you what's happening versus like me, I'd be like, absolutely nothing's wrong while I squeeze my hands so I don't cry.

Sean Patton (22:19)
Yeah,

exactly. with the tissues outside the camera just like waiting.

Marcy (22:23)
And, yeah,

I mean, it's like, I was literally taught by my mom how not to cry at work. Like, that's one of the things I learned growing up. And now, like, you know, someone's gonna cry, like, feel free, you're not hurting me, you know? Like, I wanna know what's happening. Like, if you've got something happening at home, like, please tell me so that I'm not, you know, grinding on you at work and we can work something out and I can just.

shift something to someone else or I'll pick it up and do it, just let me know. Because my priority is, frankly, to make revenue. So if you can't do it, I want to know so I can do it or someone else can do it. I mean, if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. And I'll happily take the information.

Sean Patton (22:57)
Yeah.

Yeah. How is, how are you approaching your own journey of trying to get in more in touch with how you're actually feeling your intuition versus, you know, shut that part off. just like logic braining our way through, through work every day.

Marcy (23:20)
Well, no, I still logic brain through work every I don't know. are you talking about? What feeling intuition? Now I work I'm working on that for like being a mom because I don't know if you have kids and they come in they have all these emotions like the way that I was taught was like what are you what's happening here and I shut it down, you know, like I just keep it moving.

Sean Patton (23:23)
okay.

Yeah.

Marcy (23:44)
But that doesn't work with kids. I've sort of learned through being a mom, talking to my kids, that there's a lot of applicability to people in the workplace. Sort of dealing with big emotions and things not being perfectly right. So that seems to help too. And the funny thing about life is sort of every new experience, every new thing that you learn.

There's applicability in all these weird places that I never really thought about. And it's been sort of fun, you know? So I've been working post-college now for 26 years. And the way that I've worked has changed. What I work on has changed. Although it's still the same stuff. Like I'm still trying to get people to buy stuff. But like the teams, the...

The org structure has completely changed. How we make money has changed. How people buy stuff has changed. So the only constant is sort of change and people. And so making sure that we maintain relationships, that we have fun while we're at work, that we like the people that we're working with. Those are the things that helped me get through these 26 years, and hopefully 20 more.

Or maybe not. Maybe I'll make some a lot of money and not have to work for 20 more years.

Sean Patton (24:55)
Yeah. Yeah. One of these startups kicks off and you're ready to go.

Um, I'm with you on that. Um, so yeah, it's like, I love there is you talked about, you evolving and changing also like, uh, creating clarity out of ambiguity in terms of communication between people. But one of the other things that you specialize in is taking these like complex org challenges and like, and, and making them into clear executable strategies as, as they scale. So

Marcy (25:21)
Mm.

Sean Patton (25:21)
Like on the org side, how do you approach large problem sets to try to create ordering systems out of it so you can attack it?

Marcy (25:29)
Yeah, it's pretty tough. And especially depending on your organization, you may not have bodies to fill every gaping hole. And so you've got to hire for skill. so we're not looking to bring on a super junior person to tackle a big problem. It's got to be someone that has done similarly complex challenges in the past and is able to work.

cross-functionally across the organization. So as like our organization has completely transformed, right? From an aerial imagery only company to now we're an AI company. We're an AI and data company. And so the skillset of the organization has to change along with that. And in order to do that, you have to identify what we're doing now versus what we've done previously.

talk to your team and figure out like who wants to grab this ball versus the other ball? What are the skill gaps that we have that we need to train for? And then assign that out, bring back the learnings and continuously as an organization keep learning and then shifting the balls around depending on what happens. Because the change is so dramatic and so fast from a company, from a technology, from a marketing tactical perspective, I feel like

we are like a basketball team and we're just constantly evaluating where the other players and the ball is on the field and we're pivoting and moving to sort of pick up the next play. That's how it feels like. I don't know if you're an athlete or something, there's a lot of commonality between sports and business.

Sean Patton (27:01)
Oh yeah. Yeah, totally. And in so many different ways, I, um, I played a lot of sports growing up, but I really, I was individual sport guys. So I got into wrestling growing up. I wrestled in college for two years and then, uh, I don't know if we talk about this, but I actually co-own two jujitsu gyms in Nashville. so, uh, yeah. Yeah. So it's like, yes. And you're, you're setting things up ahead of time and you know, the person and the techniques are always changing and, uh,

Marcy (27:18)
Okay, well, very similar then. You're anticipating the next move.

Yeah.

Sean Patton (27:29)
And I think the biggest, you know, not to go to Jiu-Jitsu rattle, like, but the, the biggest thing that you get in a lot of sports and especially in Jiu-Jitsu is just the ability to make decisions during discomfort. You know, like, being completely, yeah, like not, not necessarily, you're not, you're in the most uncomfortable situation you could possibly imagine. And like, how can you stay calm and like solve the problem in front of you?

Marcy (27:41)
That is so true.

Yeah, do you find yourself, I mean, I don't want to interview you, but do you find yourself sort of like compartmentalizing? So like you shut off, let's say the pain or the discomfort and try to like trigger your thinking brain.

Sean Patton (27:55)
Yeah.

probably, but I don't think of it as like shutting off. think of it's like prioritization. it's not, it's not, it's more of like a proactive versus like a reactive, like I'm going to shut this off to go here. It's more just like in the, in this, and this is actually a conversation I have with, with, with younger, or like new to jujitsu people. It's like, really separates. And it's, and this is, think applies to business as well.

is with the less, when you have less experience, one of the reasons that it feels overwhelming and stressful is because you're like unable to actually identify like what is important and what isn't. And so everything feels important. And so you're like, Oh my God. And so you see a white belt. It's like freaking out and trying to, there's like a million things going on and like, and this, and this, and this, then it does like, then you see like, you know, a black belt or somebody's trained for a long time and just like barely breathing. Cause you're like, I know that like your elbow going here and not going here is the one thing.

Marcy (28:32)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (28:49)
that's stopping everything else. Like, I'm just going to focus on that. It's like everything else is just noise. And so seeing being able to see that is really, I think the benefit of, of experience in, you know, in that sense, and then also inside of, you know, inside of business as well.

Marcy (29:02)
Yeah, honestly, when I have people on my team that are in that freak out, you know, they're just completely overwhelmed and sort of like paralyzed. What I tell them is bring a list of everything that you're doing, literally everything that you're doing, bring a list of everything you're doing to our next meeting and we're going to cross some stuff off. You'll always find like three things like stop doing that shit. We're not doing that anymore. Like, I don't know why.

Sean Patton (29:19)
Yeah. Yeah.

you

Marcy (29:26)
Don't worry, I'll take care of that one. And they feel so much better just because it helps you figure out what matters, what doesn't matter, and what's important.

Sean Patton (29:38)
And do you,

sorry, do you find that or use that as like a training moment to help them start to think of like, like how, how, how are you thinking about this? How are you prioritizing? How are you going to change this in the future? Like that sort of thing? Is it like a teaching moment or coaching moment?

Marcy (29:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, and also like, know, sometimes you just got to step back and think about, so as people move through their careers from sort of IC to managers, you know, to higher management, they need to learn the skill of consistently evaluating the work. And they'll fall, they tend to fall into a trap a lot of times of like, I'm going to keep doing everything that I've always been doing and then just keep stacking on and that doesn't work.

Because times change, the market changes, the buyer changes, your team changes, and you get more information about what works and doesn't work. And so you should be constantly re-evaluating that. And your time is finite, so you have to optimize for your time. And so I do that constantly. I don't like doing process stuff. So I don't really do a whole lot of process stuff anymore.

Number one, it sucks my energy. I'm really not that good at it. And so I have other people on the team do all that so I can spend my time and energy being effective in other ways. And other people need to think about that too. If they are really struggling to do, let's say, automated email campaigns because they can't get the technology right, well, go and hire someone that's

an expert in Marketo, you know, and help them help you set up stuff and teach you and then you can get going on it. But really sort of like staying mired in the weeds and all the stuff flying at your face, that's gonna overwhelm anybody. And so that is a skill you have to learn to adapt and grow.

Sean Patton (31:22)
So you mentioned like process stuff, isn't your jam, does it give you energy? What does?

Marcy (31:25)
Hate it.

I like creativity and problem solving. And so I really love sort of evaluating a problem and coming up with a unique solution to it. And honestly, I don't really create anything from scratch. It's more about looking at what's out there and then figuring out something like one of the things that I see or learn or read about and taking that as a tactic to try to

band-aid the problem or try something or get a growth factor or something. That's really my favorite. My original back, the first thing I did was work at an advertising agency and I wasn't in a creative role, but I was just in the creative, know, thinking, we talked about it all the time. And I find that sort of that skill is in marketing orgs is pretty few and far between now. So it's one that I get to exercise a lot and it's really fun.

Sean Patton (32:14)
Yeah. Where's, um, in, that, you know, marketing space. So I'm hearing it's like, there's a bit of finding your zone of genius, finding where you're most effective and then working inside the organization to, do majority of your work there. Of course, I think that's potentially a little easier. The higher up you go, uh, you know, as your lower level, it's like, no, we hired you to do this thing, do this thing. Um,

Marcy (32:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, well you

picked the job, you didn't like force to do it.

Sean Patton (32:40)
Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that's a good call. there, there's a good chance, you know, you talk a lot about, you know, pivoting, like when you need a pivot, we talked about need to change and adapt and also like stay the course. like, what are some things that someone needs to look at? Like maybe it's time to pivot off of and go a different direction versus, Hey, it's just time to stay the course and like, keep rowing.

Marcy (33:00)
Well, I have lots of friends in marketing right now and the number one thing that I tell them when they tell me they hate their job is like too bad because the market sucks. So you need to stick it out until you find another job. It's rough, right? So if you're really not enjoying the work that you're doing, I would say that you stick it out and do your best where you are.

looking for the next opportunity, growing a skill in another area, asking your current company to be on a project that maybe is more attuned to what you end up wanting to do. If you're doing good work and you're just not happy in your current role, the company wants to keep you because good talent is good talent. And so if you're consistently getting high performance ratings, but maybe the team isn't right that you're on, you can raise your hand most likely.

move to another role, you know? So I would say in this environment, like try to keep a job. Try not to go unemployed. But work, spend the extra time that you have, maybe it's outside of your nine to five. Maybe you, like, maybe instead of scrolling or watching love story, which I also watch, you learn a new skill and then try to apply that skill. That's really how you're gonna succeed right now. It's tough.

Sean Patton (33:54)
Yeah, it's good advice,

Marcy (34:12)
It's a tough market.

Sean Patton (34:13)
I'm gonna pivot at the end here to, we touched on AI, you guys are an AI company now. I'm gonna pivot it to that. When I see or work with companies that are integrating AI, whatever that means to their company, which means a variety of things.

Marcy (34:27)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (34:30)
it as it usually does, it comes down to, in my estimation, it's that human component. It's the inner, it's the human element of actually using it and how to use it and where is it going to most effective? And so what have you found to maybe be effective or some lessons learned as you guys made this, this AI adoption when it comes to like the human, human element of human AI integration.

Marcy (34:52)
Yeah, so our AI product is built on our data foundation. And there's like a human in the loop. So the one thing that I hate about AI products that are mostly launched today is that they're just razzle dazzle with no substance. And once you start digging into them, they throw all kinds of errors. And it doesn't actually work. So you'll see marketers all the time talking about how they are using AI to change their workflow. And then a few weeks later, they'll be like, oops.

That didn't really pan out like I thought. There are some things that work, but by and large right now we haven't seen dramatic replacement of workflows with AI products in the marketing space. The difference is if you can base an agentic solution on top of data that is high quality, human in a loop to ensure quality, and so that the agentic solution is referencing that high quality

Sean Patton (35:22)
Yeah.

Marcy (35:44)
data,

that's verified, then you have a much better outcome. So lots of AI solutions are sort of based on random searches on the internet that aren't verified or not human in the loop. And so you'll get a crappy output. And so what I found sort of is both with AI products and then also AI optimization at work, you have to sort of keep that human in the loop to verify quality consistently to make sure you're getting the output that's desired. You know, I think

I think AI solutions in general are here to stay for better or for worse. so making sure that we're using them in a way that gets us to where we want to be versus just doing them for the purpose of doing them and saying that we're doing is how we want to go. There's folks right now sitting in seats and their bosses are saying, you need to be using AI. And they're just doing random things with AI with no check and no.

verified outcome and just like you know that middle manager that new to the work environment person that has a long list and they're just doing randomly 25 different things you can't you just can't do that you're not benefiting anybody you're not benefiting yourself you're not benefiting the company and at the end of the day your company wants you to spend every waking hour generating growth so make sure that the work that you're doing is doing that

Sean Patton (38:00)
Yeah, I think that.

the, and tell me if you're seeing this too, or you take us like, what I'm hearing there is that like, if you look at AI as a way to make the people that you do have the humans in the loop even better, like take the humans to a new level that seems to be successful. What I see with other companies is that they're there, what they're really looking for is replacement. And what I have seen with, you know, companies, I have one company in particular, like right. They

This was six months ago too. like on, uh, onboarding for a new, new SaaS product and like, said, Oh, AI can onboard now. And so they got rid of half the onboarding team and all of a sudden it was like, Oh, that's your point. Actually this, this can't do everything that humans can do. And all of a sudden there are like, their time from close to onboarding new client went from two weeks to eight.

And it's like, and then you've got half your team trying to make up for all of that stuff with new processes. And it just like imploded because of this rush to sort of replace immediately as opposed to enhance what's currently available. And I'm wondering if that's kind of, if you've seen that play out in your experience with you or your colleagues as well.

Marcy (39:03)
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you a non-work example. We're calling into our mortgage company to verify payment from someone of a property that we own that they're buying, whatever. And we are on the phone with an AI agent. And we're talking about like a $10,000 check. And so AI agent for like 20 minutes, you can imagine how we feel about this mortgage company at this point. And I will not choose them going forward. And they don't have that information.

They have no idea that the level of dissatisfaction has happened. And so the corollary to work is that you need to make sure that you're monitoring early signals for dissatisfaction, dysfunction, poor business outcomes. Because you may not really get the true signal till later, but just randomly deploying your AI and be like, hey, we have the great signal that we no longer have a person answering the phone.

that you're missing the final outcome, which is turning a customer that was previously talking to that person. So no amount of AI agent replacing your customer service agent is going to replace the interest payment that you're going to get from me paying this mortgage company, right? So it's like, we're all in a rush, but make sure that you're measuring and understanding the final outcome of your metrics.

Sean Patton (40:18)
I

I really resonate with that. And, know, I'm actually in the process of, you know, kind of redoing my integration to my own business when it comes to coaching and coaching and executive coaching and training. And I'm part of this larger firm. So there's this extra level of like, they've got their own stuff that software integrate with and like some of it, they went in and went out. I'm like, uh, uh, an entrepreneur, so our tumor who's like trying to develop this, but also having to interact with a larger company structure. Um, and so as I'm designing,

Marcy (40:43)
Yeah.

Sean Patton (40:45)
this right now. One of the things I'm constantly considering is like my executive assistant, I want it to enhance what she can do. And then when it comes to actually interacting with my clients or my prospects or leads, like I want that to be a human being.

enhanced by their whose abilities and decisions are enhanced by AI, not Hey, you should work with me and, to explore meta performance and become the greatest version of yourself. And, know, here's a robot with some automations. Like, you know, it's just like, it's your point. It's like not those things, those things don't align, and, and I think people are getting very, even more sensitive to that. And it'll be, it'll be interesting to see in the future. If there's a turning point where like AI gets so good that people don't care.

But I kind of suspect, especially when comes to things that feel personal, like your money, like your development, like your family, you're like, I don't want to talk to an AI robot about my kids' health problems, you know? So.

Marcy (41:28)
Yeah.

No. And honestly,

if I'm doing a deal with a company and they want to start qualifying me with an agent, that's probably a no too. I mean, may not be a no immediately, but if my alternative is to talk to a person that's educated and understands, has 25 years of experience in the insurance industry, then that seems like a conversation I'd prefer. And that would change maybe my buying opinion.

I think there's a place for AI agents, but you gotta be careful about the population that you're using them on. And definitely it's not your most important stuff. That's still human led.

Sean Patton (42:14)
Yeah. as you wrap here, Marcia, guess, you know, you've, talked about the change you've gone through as a leader, and, and in all these different roles and different types of companies, you know, we kept coming back to that, right? And now we've talked to them more about how we're integrating robots into what we're doing. so.

As you look back and out there and you're talking about like, you're you know, you're Gen X are trying to, how do I actually feel about myself? I'm trying to like, have this on your own identity and I relate so hard to a lot of that. Um, so if you go back and, and, and you would tell, know, yourself, you said 26 years ago coming to college, like about the advice to give them as they went into this, this journey, this professional journey, this leadership journey, what advice would you give Marcy?

Marcy (42:36)
Yeah.

I've been thinking about this a lot because I have a plan for someone coming out of college. I think it could potentially be easier than when I came out of college because the need is so high for a builder and a learner and someone that embraces AI. so here's what I would, every company is screaming about hiring AI first people. So this is what I would do if I was coming out of college. I would attack it like an ABM play. So I would

make a list of my top 50 companies that I want to work at, make another column with all the contacts at those companies that could potentially have a job for me, either now or in the future. And then I would start building an AI agent for a problem that they're likely to have. And you can build the same agent for many of these different same companies. So like a competitive intelligence agent, for example. And I would write out step by step how I would build it.

include files so they can test it, copy and paste it into whatever tech they're using. And then I would start sending it to these folks and be like, here's a competitive agent I built for you. And it will do X, Y, and Z, name their competitors, you can easily figure that out. And then once they respond to you, offer that you will go build it for them on contract.

And so you have many shots on the board to get, nail a contract offer with this agent that you've already built. You've already showed that you understand AI. You're willing to learn. You're willing to build, willing to add value to their company for something they probably desperately need on their bench. Get in as a contractor, crush it. You're going to have to work longer hours than nine to five. You're going to have to be on top of your list of priorities. You're going to deliver on those priorities. But then that's your most likely path to an FTE role. That's how I would do it.

Sean Patton (44:32)
Man, I love that. I love that step by step. This is how you're going to do it. hope that there's maybe some young people listening to this or people with young people in their families that they can just like splice that and send it to them because that is super powerful. Marcy, this has been super fun. I appreciate you coming on the podcast and sharing all your wisdom with us today.

Marcy (44:48)
Thanks, Sean.